David Whelan on the Lennon Assassination: Evidence They Don't Want You to See! Part Two!

In Part Two of our interview with David Whelan, we continue our deep dive into the complex narrative surrounding the assassination of John Lennon. We explore the intricacies of the events, challenging official accounts and questioning witness statements. The enduring legacy of John Lennon, The Beatles, and Yoko Ono is central to understanding the impact of this tragic event.

Transcript

Setup, Housekeeping, Viewer Q&A Invite

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome back to History's Agenda. We pick up with part two of our interview with David Wellen. Please like and subscribe. We did really enjoy our time with David and a couple of notes. One is a lot of the photographs that we talked about are in the video at the beginning and at the end of every episode. Also, David is offered to our listeners, watchers, listeners to answer questions. So please, if you have questions for David, leave your questions in the comments and we'll be lucky enough to get David to come back and answer them for us. Thank you very much for watching part two of our interview with David Wellington.

McDougall’s Return And Pinkertons Overnight

SPEAKER_03 1:46

So the next time we see Doug McDougall is on the night of the murder, people after John's been shot and he's been, you know, he's he's been called at the Roosevelt and he's he's died. And it's been announced at 11:40 by Howard Casell on Monday Night Football. People, various workers, Michael Mandeiros, Fred Seaman, Richie De Palmer, who all work at Dakota for John and Yoko, they all go to the Dakota. Okay, so they're all there around about midnight. Yoko's lawyer, David Warnflash, is also there very early, so she got lawyer up very quickly. Lon Hoffman says that when he's interviewing her, her lawyer's sitting right next to her, which I find quite interesting as a detail. You know, very quick to get your lawyer in there. So they're all there and they all say Doug McDougall's there. Suddenly Doug's back to work that night. And not only is Doug back to work telling people what to do and da da da da he's got Pinkerton agents in there at one o'clock in the morning with machine guns. Okay. Now you might know this Steve better than I do, you you know, in your experience here. But I would think that it kind of makes sense that she gets Doug back, right? You can imagine she's like, get my bodyguard back for Christ's sake. Someone's trying to kill my someone's killed my husband, they might try and kill me. Give Doug a call, get Doug back. But surely at one o'clock in the morning, it's not easy to rustle up five or six, uh, you know, I've heard all different numbers of Pinkerton agents with machine guns in your hallway just a couple of hours after the murder. It seems very quick to me that Doug managed to get all that arranged.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

It's might be possible. It definitely, it definitely is strange, but it's not unusual that there's these mercenaries sitting around that make fortunes of money that you push a button and they appear. And there are guys out there that do that stuff. Yeah. You know what I mean? And they're all ex-CIA, ex-military, nobody questions them, nobody can stop them, there's no control over them. They look like everybody else.

SPEAKER_03 3:49

Yeah, and someone like Doug McDougall, doing what he did for a living, he'd know how to get hold of these guys.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

He'd know how to And it just happens in a i it I've seen it happen in a flash.

Seaman, Diaries, And Suspicious Timelines

SPEAKER_03 3:59

Yeah. You know, I mean, so So that to finish off the Doug McDougall story, a guy called Fred Seaman, who was a Lennon assistant, wrote a book about his time at the Dakota, which Yoko tried to stop. Fred did some dubious things. He tried to, well, he did. He stole Lennon's diaries and journals. He was going to make a booker with them. It's all very messy, the Doug McD uh, the Fred Seaman journals, diaries, deaths. I won't go into it. It's a podcast in itself. But Fred then wrote a book which Yoko tried to get stopped. So Fred's got an agenda, let's put it that way. So we have to always with Fred. I I trust Fred, I like Fred, and I pretty much believe everything he says, but you have to put that caveat in there that he's had legal problems with Yoko. I think you've always got to, and Fred's a straight-up guy, he'd understand that that caveat has to be put in there. But Fred said in his book that he looked in a diary after the murder and saw that Doug McDougall was actually put in that diary due to come back to work on the 9th of December, which is the day after the murder, which is slightly suspicious, if that's true, that she put in her diary that I'm going to need him back the day after the murder. So you can believe that, you cannot believe that. Ultimately, what we do know is lots of witnesses have told me that Doug was there that night sorting security out, and he had Pinkerton agents there helping him sort security out. Doug didn't last long. He about eight months later, back in 81, he was sacked by Yoko because allegedly he took his eye off Sean in Central Park, which again doesn't make much sense to me. Apparently, Sean was very fond of him. And then, according to Elliot Mintz, who's Yoko's publicist, a guy who's very much in team Yoko, he wrote a book recently, which is interesting. Elliot said that Doug McDougall stole some items from John before he left the employment and then sent a letter phone call demand into Yoko and Elliot saying, I married some back pay. If you don't come and bring back pay to me in my Florida home, I'm going to keep these items. It doesn't make sense. Allegedly, Elliot then went to Doug's house, exchanged the items for the money. No doubt an NDA was exchanged. But I've I've found some evidence that just Doug was strangely working for Lenono Music, which was Yoko Ono's kind of music company after John was dead. It was apparently still around when John was alive, but Lenono Music was the publishing music house for Yoko after her husband's death. And I believe Doug McDougall was on there as an executive on some of those records beyond when he was allegedly sacked. And I spoke to somebody, an insider there who wants to remain anonymous and said to him, Well, how the hell did he get working for Lenano Music after he stole some items and they just said he always wanted to work for the music industry? So Doug McDougall is a is a I think one of the main guys in all of this that I'm still incredibly fascinated about and I want to know more about because obviously, because of what he did for a living, there's very little we can find out about Doug McDougall. And I really would love to find out more because I think he's a fascinating guy. And I still can't quite figure out whether he just was an FBI guy that fell into it because of the Puerto Rican thing, or whether he was put in there to do a job. I really don't know. Possibly both. But it it it's always troubled me that a guy like that was around the Melbourne.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

In your book, you talk about a uh British presenter who uh interviewed John, and when he interviewed, and there's like a few days before, it was these two big guys that they were dressed and whatnot, and they were his bodyguards at the time. So who was uh running them? If Doug was out of the picture a few days before, who was running them? No one knows, Dom.

Who Protected Lennon When Doug Was Out?

SPEAKER_03 7:40

I mean, there's there's there's people that might be in the frame. There's some very large bodyguards at the recording studio, the record plant. It might have been them. They may have actually gone to dinner with John. John apparently did go to dinner with some of these guys, so they may have been there when Andy Peebles was, you know, doubling up as having a dinner with John, but also keeping an eye when Doug McDougall was on leave of absence. There might have been that. There's also a couple of young lads called the Martello brothers who allegedly turned up a bit like Paul Garrett, the photographer, they blagged their way into the building, and Yoko was so impressed with their, you know, their gumption to get in and get near her that she gave them a job as security. And this is true. The Martello brothers were around and they were kind of just young street hustlers, really. I think I think Greg Martello's a lawyer now, but but yeah, so it might have been the Martello brothers, it might have been someone else, you know. Who knows? It's it's a complete mystery. Certainly nobody that was in the Lennon's kind of orbit, like Fred Fred Seaman and Michael Medeiros is another guy I've spoken to a lot, who they were both were assistants for the Lenins at the time, they've got no idea who these guys, the Andy People, saw. So it's it's a bit of a mystery. But the but the whole Lennon security bodyguard thing is a mystery, really. And it is very odd that that night they didn't drive up to the vestibule. Now the limo pulled up to the sidewalk. Right. I've heard various reports. A guy called Mario Casciano, who was a kind of assistant for May Pang and John, he told me that it was quite common for them to pull up to the sidewalk and get out. But I'm not sure Mario's right there because I've spoken to a lot of other people and they said, no, no, no, no. They always drove up that driveway and they got out at the vestibule door, so there was no exposure, excuse me, to the public, which makes sense. So who knows?

Odd Limo Drop And Security Habits

SPEAKER_01 9:30

I can tell you one firsthand story in 1978. I worked for, and Dom's heard the story, and I may have mentioned it in the video, I don't remember. I worked at a very fancy shoe store called Treasure Day on Fifth Avenue and Third Street, which is just a couple blocks from the plaza, not that far from the Dakota. And one person took care of Yoko Ono when she came in with him. And what they would say is that he would the two of them were so paranoid that if they when they pull up in a limousine and open the door, and if they didn't see her standing right there, they wouldn't get out and come into the store. So she would wait there, and one day they came, the door opened up. I obviously didn't say anything to them. I was there, I kind of peeked around, you know. But the two of them got out. She bought back then the boots were$395 in 1978, so they were expensive. She bought 10 pairs of black boots and they got back in the car. I didn't see a bodyguard. There was a rather big gentleman driving the Vlimo. Right. But that's I mean, they didn't say they said a load of people. They were cordial when they were there, but Annie said that they were just so paranoid they wouldn't get out and just wander around in a store.

SPEAKER_03 10:46

That's interesting. I mean, that there is a legend that John was always walking around the city. Apparently, he did go to a local coffee shop often and had a coffee there, and he went to the local bar now and again. He was spotted, he went to local hairdressers. So that there is there is evidence that he did that. Uh, but I think John was different to Yoko. I think Yoko, from what I gather, was the more security conscious, but then that doesn't fit with her sacking the bodyguard, you know, a couple of months before the murder, or putting on a leave of absence. So that whole Doug McDougall Yoko FBI thing, it's still something that I'm digging into deeply, but it's just the FBI, you're not gonna get the stuff you want out of those guys. They're just not gonna tell you what you want to know. So I'd love more information on Doug McDougall, I really would. But I think because of what he did for a living, I don't think we're gonna get much.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yeah, it's hard. I had a next-door neighbor that was an FBI agent, that's what he did. He went undercover in defense facilities, searching out these uh and and one time he caught a big guy, and then they went public with him, and I guess as a deterrent, I think it was in Time magazine or something, and they had him and the agent he caught at some facility went up. And listen, he was I knew him my whole life because his son was a friend, his brother was a friend of mine. He was not a guy you messed with.

Politics, Reagan Era, And Motive Theory

SPEAKER_03 12:08

Yeah, yeah. There's a serious guy who's doing serious work, and I think Doug was one of the most serious, uh, you know, from everything I've heard about him. Um, but just the politics, just that whole, you know, apparently he he had extreme right-wing views. What's he doing in, you know, lefty John Lennon's house? It doesn't make any sense. It just it I can't fathom how John put up with it. It's it's just bizarre. I mean, there's and while we're on that right-wing thing with John, something that Fred Seaman did once, that I think we just need to address this, because whenever I'm talking about the right wing element around Mark Chapman and how this might have been a kind of taken out a critic of the incoming Republican right-wing government, which I still think is a theory that's solid, people say to me, Oh, yeah, yeah, but John was gonna be a Reagan supporter. John said he liked Reagan. Now, the reason people say that is Fred Seaman on a documentary called Beatles Stories was joking that John said he was gonna vote Reagan, right? But the reason he said that, the context that people often miss, is that Fred Seaman's uh uh uncle, I think his name was Norman, he got Fred the job, and Norman was a longtime confident of the Lennons, okay, and he was living in the Dakota, working in Dakota. He was an extreme socialist, Norman, right? He was a proper lefty, okay? And John won John often used to wind up Norman and joke with him and say, Oh, yeah, you know that Reagan? Yeah, you know, he doesn't seem all that bad, you know. I think I might vote for him. Yeah, you know, he's got some good things about him. Just to wind up Fred's uncle, okay. Fred Fred's admitted this, but people don't want to know about that jokey bit. They just want to know, oh, John said he was gonna vote for Reagan. So but even if that was the case, how's Reagan gonna know that? How's Reagan's people gonna know that? How are they gonna know about what John's saying inside his home about who he might vote for or he don't vote for? When they when it comes to politics, all they know about John is that he was the bêt of the previous Republican president. And you know, Nixon hated John, and John hated Nixon, and they knew Ronnie was gonna come in with a hawkish agenda. Nicaragua was just just about to kick off, Grenada was gonna kick off, Iran was a problem, the Soviet was still a very powerful empire, you know. And the Euro missiles were gonna be installed. There was a lot going on, and John Lennon might have been a problem. You know, I think he would have been a problem. I don't think John would have gone, oh, that Grenada invasion, that was great. Yeah, I believe every word they said about those students and Nicaragua, yeah, those Sandinistas, they sound terrible. Let's let's let's get those countries armed up.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

And fairly recently, American voters, the voting age was dropped from 21 to 18. So there was a lot of these kids in college who had just been hand pupped to go to Vietnam and all those things now have a chance to vote. And maybe they weren't that interested, maybe they were. He could get them interested.

October Surprise, Iran-Contra, And Networks

SPEAKER_03 15:04

He could. And and look at look at what that administration were doing before they got into power. Look at what you know people like William Casey were doing with October Surprise, with those hostages that just miraculously came off the plane just after Reagan was sworn in. I mean, Craig Unger's written an amazing book on October Surprise, if anybody's interested in reading about that. You know, it's all come out now. They're still trying to keep a lid on October Surprise, by the way, because it was illegal, it was a criminal act. And we all know about Iran Contra, of course. I mean, that's all come out and Oliver North, they of course they tried to spin it that Oliver North was the hero. But ultimately, that Reagan administration, the more I read into it, what those people did and what they were up to, illegal acts, forget about their politics. They were engaged in illegal activity. And William Casey, like our good friend Doug McDougall, was a black ops guy. He came from a black ops background. You know, he was in the LSS, did incredible stuff, William Casey did against the Nazis. You know, he's not all a bad guy. It's not a black and white thing. But he brought all those skills, William Casey, into that Reagan administration when he became the director of the CIA in 1981. He knew how to do things off books, William Casey. And he was operating for the Reagan administration in 1980 with the October surprise. Would people like that have a problem with taking out a potential uh critic of Ronald Reagan that could galvanize tens of thousands of young people? I don't know. You tell me. Hard to say. We'll never know. We'll never know. But John wasn't just double fantasy. Everyone says, but he was doing a cozy album. You know, why would woman or beautiful boy be a problem for the Reagan administration? And I say, well, ultimately John Lennon was a lot more than double fantasy. You know, he was a guy that was not frightened to speak his mind. He would say it as he saw it. If he thought a politician was doing something wrong, he would get up and go on a national TV show and say it. No problem. You know, he's reckless. A lot of his friends told me often the word that would come up with John was reckless. And he was very reckless, you know, especially with the Nixon stuff and Watergate and the Watergate earrings, you know, sitting there with his buzz cut, haircut, smirking at Nixon as he's, you know, you know, suffering at the hearings. You know, this is these people remember these things. You know, Nixon was a friend of Reagan. You know, it's he was very, very irresponsible, I think, with a lot of the things he did. But ultimately he would say, I I just I just spoke my mind, I I I spoke my truth and be damned. For me, when it comes, we're never gonna know why it happened and who was behind it. You know, a bit like JFK, we can surmise all we like. But for me, I just can't get away from the fact that John was shot just a few weeks before Reagan was sworn in. I can't get away from the timing. It's just to me, it's so stark that. And I think if you're looking for people that were controlling Mark Chapman, the people that were, I believe, well, we know they're connected to people like Jo M. Rogers, who was Reagan's moneyman. Jo M. Rogers was connected to Charles McGowan. I'm not saying Charles McGowan is is some big kingpin who put all this together, but it's very troubling how Reagan's chief financier was best friends with a guy who was Mark Chapman's best friend, slash pastor, slash whatever else Charles wants to be with Mark. That that's that's too close for comfort for me. That you've got Reagan powerful people connected to people that are closely, intimately connected to John Lennon's alleged killer. That's disturbing. They shouldn't be there. That you know, I always thought Mark Chatman was just this crazy kid who was in his bedroom, you know, the kind of lone nut sort of stereotype, you know, cliche who just listens to records backwards and he's kind of bullied at school and he's got mummy and daddy issues, and one day he snaps and goes out and shoots someone because he wants to be famous. That's not Mark Chapman. That's not who he was, and he certainly wasn't a lone nut. He was surrounded by a lot of people, and a lot of those people have been erased from history. And I think people need to know who they are, and they need to know who they were connected to, and then people can make up their own minds about what those connections might mean.

Could Lennon Galvanize Youth Again?

SPEAKER_01 19:24

It's so funny you put that Reagan thit piece together. I never really thought about that. I never really thought about the timing of him every and now what do we know? We know what he did about for the hostages, so to speak, kept them there until it was good, or whatever. Whatever you want to do, orchestrated it, didn't care it was president of the United States, didn't care whether these were citizens, and orchestrated. Now, like you said, Nicaragua, Iran Contra, all those things. I mean, we all know what happened there, or at least we know somewhat had happened there. And yes, it spun to be a hero. But when you look at when you think about what Nixon did to stop Lenin and what Lenin had had thrown out there that he was possibly gonna do around the Nixon era. Um, at least threaten to to have people voter registration. I mean, think about it. Think about in every large city in America, you could have students signing up for voter registration and change the roles of voters significantly. And then and now you have Reagan coming in, all the people he has around him are all these I mean. Look at his vice president. Yeah, and Reagan had to be scared of anybody, he should have been scared of him.

SPEAKER_03 20:59

The architects of the you know, the first Iraqi war, you know, and your Bushes, your Chinese, your Ramsots, they're there. They're in the background. These are hawkish men.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

They're all there.

SPEAKER_03 21:06

They're all there with intelligence, military links.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

And we know what we know what, you know, they came in with Ford, who wasn't elected, right? And he and he brought all those people around him then, and all the things they did to orchestrate and that led to the the uh Nixon being let off the hook, so to speak. Not and I remember at the time I I I could care less. You know, let him go back to San Clemente and whatever. Um when I met him a couple of times, it was at a football game, and he never he never really spoke about anything else than football. It's not like I was gonna ask him about Watergate. You know what I mean? Like, you're sitting in the stands of the Republican. My friend's father was um head of the metal lands and and and chairman of sports and gaming in in New York, in New Jersey. So he Get access to the the state's box, the governor's box, or whatever it is. So we used to go there every once in a while, and he would be there. And he would sit out with everyone, wave, left.

Chapman’s Circle And Right-Wing Links

Defense Shake-Up And MKUltra Names

SPEAKER_03 22:12

So I mean, like like I mean Nixon, like Reagan, very personable guys. I'm sure if we went to a bar and had a drink with them, we'd think they're the greatest guys around. You know, and I think it Reagan was a lot more than just him. It was the people behind him, it was the movement. You know, there was a whole movement to the right in the 80s. I mean, obviously, we are in Britain we had Thatcher. Uh, and then when Reagan came in, the 80s was on steroids. You know, it was deregulation, it was, it was credit all the way, and it was if you were doing well in the 80s, fantastic. If you weren't forget it. And there was there was a group of people, it's not often known this, but there was a group of people called Le Circle, who were a kind of secret organization. Look them up. It was a little French group, C-E-R-C-L-E, Le Circle. And it was basically a bunch of kind of right-wing influencers at the time. So you had bankers, intelligence people like William Casey, you had politicians, all kinds, but but it was always secret meetings that have now come out. They've now been revealed that these guys are in secret meetings. And their whole reason Detroit was to get in right-wing politicians all over the world. And when Thatcher was got in, it was like, yes, we've managed to do that. And the way the way they did it was they attacked left-wing um opponents. So in Britain, Harold Wilson, who was Thatcher's uh he was a previous left-wing um prime minister in England, and then you had James Callahan. They were attacking anybody that was left and weak, and they were they were planting stories, making out that they were kind of commi Soviet sympathizers, and it was a kind of propaganda media blitz, all orchestrated by this Le Circle group. And what's interesting, guys, is you know, you've got these things going on. It sounds like I'm sort of like some crazy Illuminati guy, but these these this organization existed, it's been proven, and it still exists to this day. They've still got an office in London and they're still funding right-wing politicians. And you sort of wonder, what are you funding them for? You know, are you funding them just because you like like the cut of the jib, or or are you funding them that you're hoping they're going to get into power and then you can start controlling things again from the shadows? And what's interesting, the reason I bring up La Circle is William Casey, our old CIA black ops friend, Reagan's CIA director in 81, who was with Reagan, by the way, the day after John's assassination in New York. William Casey was there with Reagan when he got doorstepped about it by the media. But what's interesting is there was a La Circle meeting, would you believe, guys, on the 7th of December, a secret La Circle meeting, one day before John Lennon's assassination in Washington. Isn't that interesting? That they all got together for a meeting just a few hours before John was assassinated. Now, I'm not saying there's any link there, and we don't know who attended that meeting. We only got a few names because certain journalists have managed to find out through other means who was at these meetings. But I'm always deeply disturbed when you've got these secret organizations that meet up with a very specific agenda, and they're often politicians who should be public in what they're doing, and there's no minutes, there's no transcripts of what they talked about. It's all done behind closed doors, and that deeply disturbs me. And I think in this, I sound like I'm going a bit of a political rant here, guys, but it's it is all relevant to me with this kind of people saying to me, Well, Reagan was a lovely guy, and I think he probably was a lovely guy, but Reagan wasn't what Reaganomics was about. Reagan was just a figurehead. It was the people behind him and the agendas behind him. And when I look into that government, they're incredibly hawkish, and they were incredibly corrupt. A lot of people were corrupt and given pardons after the corruption was actually uncovered. So what would John Lennon, what would John Lennon do with that government that that went on twice with Reagan and then Bush? You know, what would he what would he say? Would John Lennon be a supporter of the first Iraq War? Would he be a supporter of the second Iraq War? I don't think so. He's not going to be a supporter of any war. Any war. He was the only guy, wasn't he? If you think about it, he was the only sort of major cultural figure that actually I don't think there's been one since that's actually said war's not good. Can we stop war, please? Who who is doing that today? Is Taylor Swift doing that today? No, they're not. You know, and when they do when people do cultural figures do speak out they then say what they say at an awards ceremony, and then they very quickly get piled on, and then they go and hide behind the their sort of mansions and they close the door and they don't want to upset the focus groups, you know, they don't want to lose their audience share. Um so we really need some more John Lennon's, but I'm not sure we'll ever get another one because it's just it takes a lot of courage to do it, doesn't it? You know, it takes a lot of courage to stand up and say war is bad and we need to think more about peace. And and I think John paid a price for that. I really do. I I don't think it was a lone nut. I really don't. And Chapman was clearly an MK Ultra Patsy, and I'm not sure about our times here, guys, but I do want to say one thing. Just talking about cohesion.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

You don't have to worry about time, you can go on forever for all I can.

Hypnosis Tapes And Open-Cell Access

Front Versus Back Wounds Dispute

SPEAKER_03 27:25

But I think it's really I'm always good. It's really important that people know that when Chapman was given a, you'd know this today, when he was given a public defender, uh, Harold Herbert Adlerberg, um, a couple of days after that, literally 48 hours later, Adlerberg steps down. And the reason he stepped down was he just said it's too much pressure at the time, when when he was getting microphones shoved in his face. He said, I can't handle the pressure. He subsequently has said years later, Adlerberg, that he got death threats. Okay, he got a lot of death threats, which I believe were deliberate. I believe they needed to get him out of the way because the guy they got in his place was an inexperienced, frankly useless uh lawyer called Jonathan Marks, who was operating privately out of Rockefeller Plaza, and he'd had some DA assistant work before that as a prosecutor. But he was a very lightweight lawyer, and a lot of lawyers that I've spoken to who knew him said, I could not believe he got that gig. He was completely out of his depth. But what's interesting about Jonathan Marks is he hired another lawyer to help him called David Suggs. And David Suggs worked for a law firm firm called Donovan Newton, Irvin and Leisure. And that Donovan stands for Wild Bill Donovan because that law firm was set up by the founder of the CIA, and it was awash with CIA spooks. Even William Colby, the CIA director, used to work at this law firm. So you've got a CIA law firm employee working for Mark Chapman's inexperienced defense. Okay? And they've gone on TV recently on an Apple documentary, David Suggs, and said, well, clearly he did it. It wasn't about whether he did it or not, it was just a case of whether he was mad. So he's even he's admitted they weren't going to go looking for medical evidence that didn't fit, which of course we know is true now. They were just looking for an insanity defense. Do you know the thing that is absolutely incredible when you talk about coincidences here, guys? About a day later, after Jonathan Marx got the gig, we're talking third, maybe fourth day after the murder, he gets doorstepped in a corridor in uh probably the district attorney's office. And the media grab him and say, Oh, what's this about you putting in um a psychiatrist called Milton Klein? Jonathan. And he said, and he looks really you can see this. This clip can be found online. And he says, Yeah, uh, yeah, Milton Klein's got some great skills, yeah. I'm putting him in. And then a journalist for once does his job. Great journalist, this guy, and he said, Isn't Milton Klein a hypnotist? And Jonathan Marks looks incredibly uncomfortable, and he's kind of like, Yeah, yeah, that's part of his skill set, yeah, yeah, yeah. And off he scuttles. And then the next day, the New York Post run with that. Okay, killer to be hypnotized, suddenly it was all out in the open. They had to reveal it because they knew that the media sussed out that Milton Klein was a hypnotist. But Milton Klein wasn't just a hypnotist, guys. Milton Klein, a year earlier, went on a documentary, an incredible documentary, which you can still find online, about MKUltra, the CIA's mind control program. But not just the mind control bit, the Manchurian candidate create an assassin program. And the person who ran that program was boasting on this program that he could create a killer within a matter of months using mind control and using MKUltra, using drugs and using hypnosis. And that guy was Milton Klein. So just get your head around that. Chapman is acting like a Patsy, can't quite remember what he's done, he's probably shot John in a way that medical evidence says he wasn't shot, i.e., Chapman thinks he shot John in the back, but all the medical people said he was shot in front. And then you've got the head of the Manchurian candidate assassination program for the CIA walking into Mark Chapman's cell and closing the door and having him all to himself for as many sessions and days as he likes. None of it was recorded. There was no independent juris jurisdiction, you know, um, no independent assessors there watching what was going on. And not only did Milton Klein have Chapman all to himself, and you can hear on this Apple TV series that came out a couple of years ago, incredibly Jonathan Marks, and you'd know this, Steve. You client privilege here, Jonathan Marks, all of those tapes that you recorded with uh with Klein and other other psychiatrists, hypnotists, he has to keep them private. You've got that kind of client privilege thing going on. But what he did was Jonathan Marks gave all those tapes away to uh to a journalist called Jim Gaines. So you can actually hear, would you believe, on this Apple TV series, Milton Klein actually hypnotising Mark Chapman. He's going, you're now going to go under Mark. One, two, three. Now tell me all about this murder that you did. And you can hear Mark in a kind of slurry hypnotic state describing the murder that he no doubt has been programmed to describe. It's absolutely incredible. And this is Milton Klein doing this. You can hear him on the tape. But not only did Milton Klein get thrown in there, you've got Bernard Diamond thrown in there, who was the hypnotist who was dealing with Sir and Sirin and the RFK murder. And Sir and Sirin was so upset about Bernard Diamond coming into his cell that he kept complaining, I don't like this hypnotist coming and hypnotising me all the time. And Diamond could hypnotize Sirin to climb up the walls like a monkey in his cell. He was showing off, going, watch me do this. If I do this, this guy's gonna climb up this cell and act like a monkey. And he did. Diamond could do that. And Diamond isn't, and there was others. There was endless hypnotists thrown into Mark Chapman's cell. Tons of them. Even the prosecution put in Emmanuel Hammer, Dr. Emmanuel Hammer, they put in their own hypnotist into Chapman's cell. And all these guys, it was open season. They could get in there and they could do whatever they wanted to. And no one knows, you know, to this day what they got up to. It's just disgusting. It really is. How this has got missed, I do not know. Because of, I suspect, because of Suggs's association with Donovan Newton, and Suggs was working for Jonathan Marks, I think it would have been very easy for people to suggest to them, let's put Milton in, let's put Bernard in.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Right. So when uh attorney steps down like that, he's assigned by the court. So the court, the judge goes and looks at a panel of all these attorneys that are out there looking for work, so to speak. So there are a certain amount of, I think it's part 58, I forget what it's called, and part something or other. And and what they they so they have the group, so there's a lot of new attorneys on there because they can't get any clients because they never did anything. Exactly. So you would not, if you were a judge realizing the the gravity of this case, you would not go pick somebody that never did anything. On the other hand, the guy's already pled guilty. You might as well put somebody that doesn't know what they're doing in there because there's nothing to do. And that's what happens. And then and then I would imagine this Suggs or whatever that group just reached out to him and goes, You obviously need some help. We'll we'll volunteer to help you through. And I I would do the same thing. I would say, Great. You don't know who you are.

Autopsy Credibility And Pressure

Timeline Gaps And The Spoiled Scene

Blood, Doors, And Missing Evidence

Ray Kelly, Bullets, And Silence

Second Shooter Logic And Acoustics

Evidence Handling And Lennon’s Clothes

Movers, Myths, And Conflicting Accounts

SPEAKER_03 34:52

Well, Donovan Newton were working, I think he knew who they were, uh, Jonathan Marks. I think he's admitted that he knew that they were, you know, a law firm because they were all working in 30 Rockefeller Plaza, they're all working in the same building. So Marx had his own office in there. Donovan Newton had offices in there, so it was all nice and cozy. Uh I think what's interesting about Jonathan Marks is, and this is again one of those strange coincidences, when Gloria Chapman was bombarded by the press, she looked for a lawyer immediately in Hawaii and she found a very capable guy called Brooke Hart to be her lawyer. And Brooke's the guy who suggested that Gloria did a press conference the day after the murder, which is quite a famous press conference where she was very cold and very robotic and came out with that very infamous phrase a couple of times. It's such a shame that John Lennon had to die, which is a very cold, suspicious turn of phrase that Gloria Brook Brooke was horrified that she said this. Couldn't believe she was saying that phrase in front of the media. Can we get into the kind of the mechanics of the murder and why a second shooter started to come into sort of focus for me? So one of the first things I did um when I started to investigate this was I wanted to get to the medical people because I know in my sort of JFK research over the years that what happened at Bethesda and what happened in Dallas don't quite match up, and what what the people saw in Dallas is not what came out in the official autopsies. I thought I need to get to that. So I the first person I spoke to was a surgeon called Dr. Halloran, uh Dr. David Halloran, who was the actual surgeon who treated John. Another surgeon or another head of ER, another doctor called Stephen Lynn, took the credit for um trying to save John's life at Roosevelt Hospital, but he actually wasn't telling the truth. He um he was in the room that night. He did arrive in the ER after they were trying to save John. He came in the middle of the operation, uh, but he stood in the background and didn't actually help. But he then went to the media, Stephen Lynn, and said, I'm the guy that tried to save John, which which really did a disservice, not only because it was a lie, but it it allowed the media to talk to somebody who wasn't actually dealing hands-on with John and his wounds. So Lynn couldn't be really too accurate about where John was shot because he didn't actually have his hands on John to try and save him. But David, uh, David Halloran did, and I remember talking to David, and very early on, I had no idea about the mechanics about the shooting, and I just I went along with the official narrative and I said to Dr. Halloran, I said, Um, so where on the back was John Shark? Can you tell me what part of his back he was shot on? Believing the official narrative. And I'll never forget where I was. I remember exactly where I was when David Halloran told me this. He said, he wasn't shot on his back, he was shot in his front. And I knew the second he said that, oh my goodness, this is a lot bigger than I ever imagined it was. And I said, How sure are you? And he said, 100% sure. He was shot four times in his upper left chest, three times around his near his heart, one slightly over near his arm or upper shoulder. He said, uh four in the front, and the three around his heart went straight through and came out of his back in a direct line of fire. He said the four in his front, the bullet holes were slightly bigger than the three exit wounds, which is a classic in and out. They're always slightly bigger when they come out than when they go in. He said there was absolutely no doubt in my mind about it. He said, um, he said the one that was in up in near his arm stayed in. I said, How can I get a verification for this? He said, Well, the two nurses that were there helping me that night were Barbara, Camera, and D Sato. He gave me their number. I contacted them and they both said, Yeah, 100%. John was shot in the front four times, upper left chest. Uh, tight professional grouping is what they all said. It was uh very close together. Um and I said to Dr. Hallow, and I said, So where did you think Mark Chapman was? He said, Well, he must have been one or two feet away from him, directly in front of him, to get a tight professional group in like that. With a revolver, he said he had to be very close and right directly in front. I said, You do realise he was 15-20 feet behind him, shooting into a dark driveway with a revolver. He said, No, no chance. That's not and I said, What if John turned? Because there's a there's a story that Chapman called out to John, though Chapman has never said he did this, and Yoko said she didn't hear that. He said, Well, even if he turned, he said, from that distance, he said, the type professional grouping that I saw around John's heart, he said, not even a quote, not even a Navy SEAL, in my opinion, could pull that off. That shot with that gun in that driveway with that type of professional grouping. So the second he told me that, I just thought, this is we've just been told a lie because Chapman to this very day believes he shot John in the back. And interestingly, a video that I put out recently of a prison interview that Chapman gave, one of these pastors that was telling you about earlier sort of asked Mark, so what happened to John after you shot him, Mark? And Mark, you can almost see his brain, he's kind of malfunctioning, trying to figure out something that he doesn't know. And he said, he went inside and ran inside the building. I didn't see that. He said, I must have turned around, but someone told me that's what happened. So Mark does not know what's happening to the guy that he's allegedly shooting. He can't recall to this very day what's happening to the bloke he's hitting with five bullets or four bullets, Mark said one missed. But Mark is still convinced that he shot John in the back because Mark was told after the fact, that's what you did, Mark. And if you look at Mark's original statement, he doesn't mention shooting John in the back, he doesn't mention calling out John's name. In fact, he just says, I don't know what happened to my gun, I just know I was holding a book. So you've got to kind of ask yourself the question, was Mark even holding a gun? But what we've been told from the official narrative is the doorman kicked Mark's gun to the back of the driveway, and then Joe Manny conveniently comes up with two co-workers who I've got their statements that said they did come up with Joe, and they got the gun and they took the gun away before the cops arrived and hid it away in a drawer. So when the cops got there, guys, there was no smoking gun. There was no smoking gun, there was no gun at all. Whether Mark, whether Joe Manny was in the driveway and went down to get the guys and say, guys, did you hear that gunfire? Do you want to come up with me? Or whether Mark whether Joe Manny was with the two co-workers and came up, we'll never know. Because the co-workers don't actually specify that Joe was with them when they heard gunfire. So Joe could have been up in the driveway, or Joe could have been with them, we'll never know because the two co-workers, I think, are now deceased. So we have to take Joe's word for it that he was with them when he heard gunfire, but he could have been anywhere, I think. He certainly came up to the driveway with these two co-workers, but where Joe was when the gunfire happened, we do not know. That's still open for debate. So getting back to the medical, the two nurses, once they couldn't save John's life, he came into the ER, by the way, at 11 pm that night. They all agree on that. Everyone says it was 11 p.m. when he arrived. And he was dead on arrival, no pulse. Everyone's agreed on that. So it was a real sort of desperate attempt to try and revive him. I think it took about 30 minutes and they decided that they couldn't do it. But the two nurses then took John away, Barbara and Dee, and they washed him as they do. And I should say actually, when they first got him in at 11, they they cut his clothes off and they flipped him, which is you know a classic medical procedure with a gunshot wound to see where the wounds are, to see what you're dealing with. So they cut his clothes off, took his clothes off, flipped him front and back, so they could see whether there were any wounds lower back or legs or arms, and they said, No, they could see there was four in the top, three out the back, so they knew where they were. But when the girls, when the two the two nurses took John away, they washed him, okay, and then they wrapped him in linen, so they got to see his wounds again really close up. Then a very shady character, this whole assassination is full of shady characters, a guy called Elliot Gross turned up, who was the chief medical officer at the time in New York, he got the job 12 months earlier. He turns up weirdly that night and says to the nurses, I want to see John's wounds. And they're like, Well, why? You're gonna get him in the morning for an autopsy. Why do you want to see him now? And he insisted, much to their anger, that they had to cut off all of John's linen and sit him up so they so Gross could walk around his wounds and check them. And they just they just thought, What is going on here? This is so disrespectful. Hate to sound hate to be gory here, guys, but John started to bleed out again, and they were getting really, really angry at this disrespectful request from Gross. And once Gross had silently looked at the four in the front, three out the back, he said, Okay, I've seen enough, you can re-wrap him now. So the the get the nurses had to re-wash John again, re-wrap him again. So when those nurses say they know John's wounds, they know John's wounds. And to this day, those nurses have been steadfast in saying that's what we saw. There is a development on this side of things. I should say before I get to that that Elliot Gross, chief medical officer who did John's autopsy, has been accused before the autopsy and after John's autopsy multiple times of falsifying autopsies. So whether you put any credence in Elliot Gross's John Lennon autopsy, I'll leave up to you. But to me, his autopsy is meaningless because this guy is a crook. And he's, you know, how he didn't get struck off many years before, I do not know. But this is sadly the guy who was asked to do John Lennon's autopsy. I've spoken to people who've seen the autopsy, and apparently it says there was two upper left back entry, one upper left shoulder, and one, would you believe, guys, kind of lower back entry. Okay. When I told the nurses that this is what Elliot Gross's autopsy said, or so I've been told it said, they were furious. They were they were absolutely furious. They could not believe that Gross was saying that there was a lower left back entry wound. They said, We understand how four in, three out entry, exit. Perhaps they said we were certain, but you could make a case that we got our exit and entry mixed up, but they said there's no way we would have missed a lower left back entry point. They said it's impossible that we'd have missed that. So they said, gross is lying. Problem is, guys, somebody in the last couple of years has got hold of this autopsy, which is a private medical record that John and Yoko uh Sean and Yoko do not want to be distributed. So someone illegally has got hold of this autopsy, someone has released it. You've got to probably look at the DA's office or someone in the in the Roosevelt Hospital potentially got a copy. I don't know. I don't want to I don't want to speculate, but someone has distributed it and shown it, would you believe, to Dr. Halloran to get him to change his mind. And I've spoken to Dr. Halloran about this, and he said, Yeah, they showed me this autopsy, and um I'm now doubting myself, and I probably got it wrong, even though for 45 years I believed steadfast what the nurses believed that he was shot in the front and it, you know, exit wounds out the back. But the autopsy tells me something different. And Dr. Halloran's one of these kind of old school guys who's very uncomfortable with you know challenging authority. Remember, this is the guy for 30 years who stood in the background and allowed Stephen Lynn to take all the credit for something he didn't do. So Halloran's a kind of very laid-back, not particularly strong backbone kind of guy, and he's been got at is the only way I can say it. And he's now gone on a web uh a news YouTube channel and said, Yeah, I think I got it wrong. John was shot in the back. And the nurses feel betrayed by him, they feel absolutely betrayed that he's saying this now on on an autopsy that was put together by Elliot Gross. And interestingly, the person who witnessed this autopsy was a cop. It wasn't it needs, it should be the lead detective in the case. Very important autopsy needs to be witnessed by an by a detective, but no, it was witnessed by a rookie, or not a rookie cop, it was a fairly experienced cop, but he was just a cop, a guy called Tony Palmer, who was one of the guys who went into the back office and saw John face down and recklessly moved John's body and put him in a police car and drove him to the Roosevelt so they spought a crime scene because John was dead when they moved him, and moving a dead body from a crime scene is a crime. And the reason why I tell you I know John's dead is they left the recording studio at 10.30 that night. I've spoken to Jack Douglas, has confirmed it. I've spoken to Rabia, who's a receptionist, she's confirmed it. Yoko Ono has gone on the record and said we left at 10.30, they left at 10.30. From the record plant to the Dakota, it's a seven to eight minute drive at worst. You could I've heard some people have told me they've done it in five or six minutes. Okay, so let's be generous and say it was 10 minutes. Let's say they had a bit of traffic, whatever. But they got to the Dakota at 10.40 at the very latest, okay? And I think John was shot at 10.41. But the official narrative wants us to believe that John was shot 10 minutes later at 10.50, because they want people to believe that the NYPD cops that moved John were moving a guy that might have somehow been alive. But if he's been lying there in the back with seven holes in his body face down for 10 minutes, I think we can all agree there's no way John was alive when they moved him. And at the time when they moved him, officers Framberger and Palmer, they just said they were worried that he was bleeding out and there was no ambulance coming, so they just rashly took him away. But in recent years, Framberger has gone on documentaries and suddenly he's got a new memory now. And he says, I kind of felt a faint pulse. Yeah, of course you did, Herb. Of course you did. I don't think there was any faint pulse. He said he was John was grey. He said there was more blood than he's ever seen anywhere, and of course there would be, because John was bleeding out for 10 minutes before they got there. The cops say they got there at 10.50, and I think by the time the cops got there, no one had called them way before when they should have called them. Because the first reports were shots on 72nd Street, and that's all those reports kept saying. Shots on 72nd Street, there's some sort of disturbance there. And I think by the time the cops got there, it was a delay that I can still to this day never understand. Because the cops have all said we definitely got there at 10.50. But when they left the recording studio at 10:30, there can't be a 20-minute drive. They could have gone anywhere in the state and come back in 20 minutes, they could have gone off for a McDonald's and come back, but they didn't. We know they didn't go to eat because John said that night he wanted to eat, and for some reason they didn't go and eat. For some reason, they went home and didn't go to eat. So we know John was shot 10 minutes earlier than they said he was shot, which is really important. And another another kind of NYPD problem is as Framberger and Palmer were carrying John out, uh, they put him into their car was blocked in by other police cars that arrived at the time. And they put him in the officer, it was called Officer Moran's police car, which was free to take him to the Roosevelt. And Officer Moran is the guy who spread the BS legends that John, when he said to him, Are you John Lennon? John allegedly nodded to Moran. And then this slightly was embellished that John said yes in the back of his car. And then Moran's partner Gamble said that he had a conversation with John. So these things, as we were talking about earlier, Steve, they people just want to put themselves more and more into the story. But I've spoken to the cops that were there, and they all said no, he was dead. It's embarrassing. What Moran said was embarrassing. He's trying to get himself his 15 minutes, and he did. He, you know, he's on documentaries to this day. Moran, you can see in the 90s going, oh, yeah, yeah, John nodded, you know, he said, Yeah, um, John, then he nodded. So Moran got his fame. People to this day say John had to be alive. So, you see, for John to run into that back office, he needs to be alive, guys. Okay, he needs to be not as injured as we know he was. So if he's nodding to a cop ten minutes later as they're putting in a police car, well then that that feeds into the official narrative, doesn't it? That the cops weren't acting recklessly, and John did have a faint pulse, and he was alive, and he was able to run into that back office, but he wasn't. He clearly wasn't, because the nurses and the doctors that I spoke to all said death instantly. With those wounds, he'd have dropped and died within seconds. Even Stephen Lynn, the head of the ER, who didn't help save John, but he was in the room that night and he saw John's wounds. He said he'd have died the minute the first bullet hit. Even our crooked CMO, Elliot Gross, has gone on the record and said he would have died very quickly. So this running into a back office cover-up is to me the crux of the case. The rash actions of those cops moving John is something that to this day I still can't explain. Because when they did that, the crime scene was spoiled. And once the crime scene was spoiled, we know from workers at the Dakota they went even further. And that night, guys, they were mopping up the blood in the back office. They were mopping up blood in the driveway, which is blood that shouldn't be there, remember. Because remember what the official narrative said that when he was shot, he went into a door, went upstairs, went into a back office. So there's no time for a pool of blood to actually form in the driveway where he was shot. But people have said that there was a pool of blood there. So the whole thing is a complete mess, guys.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

This photo probably shows a police officer actually looking at that pool of blood. He's looking down and he has his uh flashlight pointed down.

Two Men In Black And Loose Ends

SPEAKER_03 52:27

Yeah, and if you look, you're right, Dom. And on the door, there's two bullet holes there. Right. And to this day, no one can explain how those bullet holes got there. The DA, though that that that vestibule, you would think, wouldn't you guys, and Steve, you'd probably know this, that should be taken into evidence as evidence for forensics? Everything. It wasn't. It was thrown in the basement. And Kim Hogreff, the DA, I actually interviewed him a few months ago and he admitted that it wasn't taken into evidence. It was just thrown in the basement. There was no men in white suits, there was no investigation, it was just all and and the bullets are completely covered up. And what's interesting, uh, because I've got all the evidence vouchers. I've got the evidence voucher for the gun, I've got Chapman's LP that was on the sidewalk, but no bullets, guys. There's no evidence voucher for bullets. And here's what's really interesting: this is a little known fact. That guy you see there with the torch, Dom, he was part of the NYPD emergency unit. Okay, for some reason the emergency unit was called that's an emergency unit uniform. Someone that was working in his emergency department in a different part of the state, a different part of New York, came to help that night, okay? Very important, interesting, famous person. And he was there to collect bullets. And the reason we know this is Officer Cullen bumped into him at the 20th precinct after the murder. And he said to him, What are you doing here? And this guy said, Ah, because he used to work at the 20th precinct, this guy. He said, Oh, I'm just here to collect the bullets. I'm just here to get the bullets. It's just a formality. But for some reason, this guy was jet into that precinct from another precinct in an emergency department to do that one job, to collect all the bullets on site. And do you know who that guy was? Ray Kelly. Ray Kelly. Ray Kelly. Commissioner Ray Kelly. And do you know another really interesting thing? When Ray wrote his autobiography, not a single word about being an attendant on the night at the murder scene of one of the most famous men who ever lived, Ray decided that wasn't something that the world needed to know. You'd think if any of us did that, I was at the crime, I was at the John Lennon assassination crime scene and I was there collect the books. Ray doesn't want to talk about that. And unless when Peter Cullen bumped into him, if Peter Cullen didn't tell us that he did that, that he met Ray and Ray told him that, that would have, that secret would have stayed buried. But that's out now. And nobody to I know, as far as I know, has gone to Ray and said, How many bullets did you find, Ray? What did you do with the bullets? Where did you find the bullets? Were they in the vestibule door? What we do know is there's a morgue receipt that came from Elliot Grosser's office that I've managed to get hold of. And on there, you've got two types of bullets specified, two bullets that have been put into evidence at the morgue. One hollow, one non-hollow. Isn't that interesting? Two different types of bullets in the morgue receipt, which to me it could be coming from the same revolver. You can have hollow and non-hollow in a revolver. Apparently, that's a thing, but it's very suspicious. So when you when you think about all of this sort of geography, where Chapman was by the sidewalk, where John was down the driveway by the vestibule door, very dark driveway, revolver that kicks, tight professional grouping around his heart. Once I got all this evidence in my head, I just thought, you know what? This is second shooter territory. This is this is Siren Siran territory.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

On that subject, does Yoko still have the clothes?

SPEAKER_03 55:55

The clothes, really interesting, the Elliott Mintz, the guy I was talking to about, the uh the publicist of Yoko, he wrote a book last year, a very, you know, Yoko-friendly book, which is fine. He's a publicist. What would you expect? But he mentioned something quite interesting in there. He said that a couple of weeks after the murder, early January, he was given, they were given by, he says the Roosevelt Hospital, but that can't be true because I've been told by cops that they went to collect it from the CMO's office after the autopsy, a bag of a bag that contained John's clothes. But he said that they were given John's clothes in a in a paper bag at the Dakota. Now, why that is weird and troubling is that is primary evidence in an upcoming court case that never happened. So I I just think if that's true, and of course we can't really verify it, though we do know Yoko used John's glasses on a on an LP cover later that year, so she must have had them at that point, John's belongings. But to be given the close of the deceased that early, months before the projected trial, the proposed trial, which was going to happen in the summer, at this point Chapman hadn't pled guilty. It's just astonishing that that evidence was just given back to the widow. It's it's absolutely I mean Steve, have you heard anything like that where it's on the evidence?

SPEAKER_01 57:12

It's that goes in the arrest area and you never you know the evidence and that never goes anywhere, lives forever in there.

SPEAKER_00 57:23

So it's possible that that she still has the clothes.

SPEAKER_03 57:26

I think so. Yeah, I think so. I mean, she's put it, would you believe, the bag with the clothes in on um art exhibitions?

SPEAKER_00 57:32

I actually saw it. It was at the I had a rock and roll uh Hall of Fame annex in uh Greenwich Village years ago, and I I saw it there. Yeah.

Closing, Substack, And Q&A Invite

SPEAKER_03 57:41

Yeah. So I mean, the problem is it's it's 46 years now, and I think even if they do turn up, it's kind of like how do you verify? The problem with John's body is the day after the murder, so that John was burn burnt, uh John was shot on the Monday night, Tuesday the autopsy was done, but he was cremated on the Wednesday. Uh, this Doug McDougall, our FBI agent friend, was sent but sent by Yoko to cremate John. John was cremated on his own, no family and friends attended in a crematorium, with ironically, considering how much they harassed him in his life, an FBI agent in attendance. It's just macabre, how that was quite cold. But that was primary evidence again, you see. Once John's body is burnt, very difficult to, you know.

SPEAKER_00 58:29

The the clothes would be important though, because you know you could see four holes in the front and three in the back. So if they still exist, that proves that. Quick question Did uh did Chapman have line of sight to the vestibule? Yes. He did. So it it's quite possible that the bullet holes in the vestibule were fired by Chapman? Could be. Yeah, could be. Could be.

SPEAKER_03 58:55

Yeah. It could be. Or the second shooter, if the second shooter was in the other alcove and John's walking towards the right, and he hears a call when he turns to the left, he opens up his his left area to be shot in. If the vestibule door that he was opening was open already and flush against the wall behind him, then a professional assassin may have done those two shots as well. Though I can't believe a professional assassin would have missed uh and and shot a door that was behind John. But it's the the two bullet holes in that glass door, and there seems to be another bullet hole in the other door behind it, which may be a follow-through, of course.

SPEAKER_02 59:33

Right.

SPEAKER_03 59:35

Are still to this day a complete anomaly. No one, I mean, obviously the DA's office and the NYPD didn't bother to even look into it. They just they were quite happy for those doors to be thrown into the basement of the Dakota, where two two two witnesses said they saw them.

SPEAKER_00 59:49

The reason why I ask about that is if Chapman fired, if if you think that Chapman fired the shots that hit the vestibule, then that would necessitate the actual shooter having a uh silence weapon utilizing subsonic ammunition. Because people heard four or five shots, nobody heard nine shots. So the other guy is is silent, you know. Automatic silent, you'd have th you'd have thought. And that could also require a second guy with him to pick up the spent, the ejected cartridges.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Or unless that was Ray's job.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:30

Only joking, Ray. Don't I don't want to I don't want to accuse Was it a two-time MYPD commissioner? Two-time. Yeah, yeah. Yes. You know, what a guy. But yeah, Ray Ray needs to talk about that. He does need to talk. I don't know why no one's approached him, why no one has gone to him and said, Ray, tell us about the 8th of December, Ray. But he's he's never like like Greg Katz, the Rolling Stone article guy, who got the scoop of the century, a lot of these people, Joe Manny never did an interview until the Apple thing a few years ago.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

And but I know you have to leave. I'd just like you to talk about the two suspicious people that were seen the day before the day of.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:11

Yeah, it's interesting this. I mean, there were there was when the cops got there, when Spiro and Cullen turned up at 10.50 and John had been lying in the back for 10 minutes, they said an interesting thing, just before we get to these two guys, they said a guy was running out of the of the driveway and said there's a guy shooting in there. They didn't bother to check who he was. They just said, Oh, you must have been a member of the public. How they knew that, who knows? So it's almost Keystone cops stuff we're talking about here now, to just let a guy run away from a murder scene like that. It's uh shocking, really. But someone approached me a few months back and said that they were a resident, and I've got this verified that they were in the Dakota at the time, and they were staying with their godmother, and um the the days leading up to the murder, two or three days, I think it's two days leading up to the murder, so the day before the murder and the day of the murder, they were coming in and out of Dakota quite a lot through that driveway. And they said they saw two men uh dressed in black with black caps on, stubble, quite large, quite military-esque men hanging around suspiciously by the driveway where we're told Chapman was hanging around for two, three days. And they saw them and they were slightly troubled by them. Um they remember seeing them in on the 7th of December, and they certainly remember seeing them on the 8th of December. And then that night, when they heard gunfire in the driveway, which a lot of people did in the Dakota that night, they both looked at each other and they went, those two men. I bet it's those two men. And um later on for the next day and for that forever after, those two men were never seen again, which is weird. Very weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:50

What's that's really weird too is is if John, which seems to be the case, because you know, the you have the pool of blood in the driveway, if he's drops there, what what's the point of moving him inside and not saying, hey, you know, it was cold out, we wanted to move him to you know a little warmer place. Like people would believe that, but what you know why the lie about him?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:13

Well, Jay Hastings Jay Hastings' shirt was covered in blood that night. Jay doesn't, you know, the concierge he doesn't dispute this. He's admitted it. Other people have said, yeah, his shirt was covered in blood. He sold it online, not like his show in auction. Ironically, the shirt he sold didn't have a lot of blood on him, but I was told by people it was full of blood and covered in blood. And I've said to Jay, I've I've interviewed Jay a few times, and I said, Jay, why was your shirt covered in blood? He said, I was covered in blood because I helped the cops carry John out into Moran's cuff. There's a big problem with that. Moran and Frauenberger and Palmer, the two cops who did carry John's body out, both told me, no, we did it by ourselves. The cops that were out in the driveway said, no, only Fraunberger and Palmer carried him out, not any workers. Even Mark Chapman, would you believe, who was sitting in a cop car at the time, said he saw two cops carrying John's body out. And one of them swore at Mark in a car that scared him, and that was Palmer. Palmer's told me that was him. So multiple people have said it was just Palmer and Framberger. But Hastings wants the world to believe that he got his shirt covered in blood because the cops, and I quote, gave him the bloody business end to carry out, i.e., John's head and chest. So that's not true. So then you've got to ask yourselves, how did your shirt get covered in blood, Jay? Because according to Jay, he very gently turned John onto his side to check his wounds when he fell in that back office. He didn't sort of get on top of him and you know cuddle him. So that's worrying. I can only see I think if I went to court, I could see a uh a court and a jury saying, Well, you must have moved him, Jay. You were the guy who moved him. And that's how you got covered in blood, because he clearly was moved from that driveway. The question is, why has Jay covered that up? Why is Jay not saying he did that? Because some people might say, hero, you're a hero, Jay. You know, the guy that shot him allegedly was out on the sidewalk, potentially still had a gun on him, and you've bravely moved him into the back. Jay's not having that. Jay said to Greg Katz that John came into his office and fell down. Jay has later said that John ran past him and spoke to him and went into a back office. Yoko hasn't verified that, but Yoko hasn't said that people moved John in. She's kind of intimated that they went into the door. So she's not saying that John fell down and was moved. The problem they've all got is Mark Chapman has never said that John was lying there. But then Mark Chapman has said things that we know are probably not true with regards to John's wounds and what he actually did. So Mark Chapman, you could almost cross him out, really. He just doesn't seem to have any, you know, credible accounts of what he allegedly did. But there is a problem they've all got. This is a big problem. This is really weird. This is probably a good way to finish. In the early reports, Reports, which I always find really interesting. That night the papers went out and the wires went out, the AP went out, associated press wires. And there was a woman called Carrie Rouse who was billed as a neighbor. And Carrie said she was she heard gunfire and she was almost first on the scene. And she said when she got into the driveway, she saw John lying there in Yoko. And she saw John bleeding out in the driveway. And as she got to John, he said, Help me. And she said then he just kind of passed out and she said he almost likely died in front of her. Now Carrie Rouse was reported in all the early reports. But the next day when all the papers went out, she's got never mentioned again. Her name has been erased from the record. I can't find Carrie Rouse, but boy would I like to find Carrie Rouse or to find some of her family members to see if she spoke about it to them because what Carrie Rouse said she saw is incredibly inconvenient for the official narrative because John's not meant to be lying there, he's meant to be in her back office. These are the anomalies of the case.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:59

And I agree with you. I think that's a good place to leave it for now. I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:07

Appreciate it, guys. And join us Substack, David Whelan.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:12

We appreciate your time. Thank you so much. Is ever anything specific you want to talk about again, please?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:18

We'd love to chat about it. If if you get what I really like to do after these things is maybe say to your audience, if they've got questions they want to ask, maybe I can come back and do a question and answer thing. Because it's always good to follow up on those kind of things. Because people we've covered a lot of ground, which is great. Well done, guys. You you put me through my paces today.