David Whelan on the Lennon Assassination: Evidence They Don't Want You to See! Full Part One Episode

David Whelan is a foremost authority on the assassination of John Lennon.
The conversation explores the complexities surrounding Mark Chapman's life and motivations. Chapman's background includes influences from religion and potential MKUltra programming. The significance of Chapman's time in Hawaii is highlighted as a turning point. The relationship between Chapman and Gloria raises questions about complicity.The day of the assassination is dissected for inconsistencies in witness statements.The role of security and bodyguards is questioned in the context of the assassination. Political implications, particularly regarding Reagan's administration, are discussed.
The narrative surrounding the assassination is filled with conspiracy theories and unanswered questions. The legacy of John Lennon continues to provoke discussion and analysis. The political landscape during Nixon and Reagan's era influenced many events.John Lennon was a significant cultural figure advocating for peace.The mechanics of the shooting raise questions about the official narrative. Eyewitness accounts and medical evidence contradict the official story. There are suspicious characters and anomalies surrounding the assassination. The role of the police and their actions post-shooting are questionable.The involvement of secret organizations in political events is concerning.The media's portrayal of events can obscure the truth.
The investigation into Lennon's death is ongoing and complex.
Future revelations may change our understanding of the assassination.

If you want to by David's Book click Below:
https://www.amazon.com/stores/David-Whelan/author/B0D3549SFP?ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1&qid=1772459579&sr=8-1&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=3b67c801-40d0-480a-a8dc-b0eff0b8f9fc

Transcript

Welcome And Milestones

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome back to History's Agenda. Tonight we have part one of Domini's interview with David Whalen, the man that wrote the book. Mind Games, the assassination of John Lennon. He is the foremost researcher into this event, this assassination. And we are lucky enough we had like a three-hour interview with him. And tonight we're going to give you part one. A couple things I do want to mention that one our podcast, Dom and I did on the assassination of John Lennon, just reached 20,000 downloads. And I want to thank you for all that hard work and that you've all appreciated. So thank you very much. That is out of all the podcasts I do, that is the greatest uh return, and I want to thank you. And please like keep liking, keep subscribing, keep listening. David is the foremost authority into this area, and you will find by listening to him the detail of his knowledge is amazing. Couple things I want to mention. We had a couple of technical difficulties. You may have some camera issues on Dom's camera, so you may see me not in my chair, or you may not see Dom during the interview, and it was just a couple of little blurbs there. With no further ado, part one of our interview with David Whelan. Thank you. David is in our eyes, and I don't mean to speak for you, Dom, one of the foremost authorities on this assassination about everything. He's the guy that literally wrote the book. He wrote the book. Here we go. We all have it next to us. Mind Games of the Assassination of John Lennon is a matter of fact, it's not only a good book, it's marvelously written. It's almost conversational. Where you're saying, Hey, look here. Look at this. This doesn't make sense, but don't believe me. Keep looking. Look yourself. And it's really the way when you talk about these conspiracies, and we talked a little bit about before, RFK, JFK, we all know the stories. But and I think this goes with the book and everything. We don't know who or why, even though we can surmise. All we have is the facts. And we ask our listeners or readers or everything to look at those facts and reach your own conclusion. You know, and when things don't make sense You know, I'm always troubled. I'm a logical thinker, obviously. When things don't make sense, it means you do not have all the facts. As we said, David, thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Thank you for those kind words. Uh it's lovely to be here.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

So, Dom, you want to start us off? Or are you uh Yeah, just uh David, you know, how did you get into the subject in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 4:30

I think like you guys, always fascinated by the uh JFK case. I've always had that as as a point of interest in my life. Uh the the Oliver Stone film in 91 just completely blew me away. That was my to coin a cliche, red pill moment. Um I have Irish parentage, so JFK and my family was a big deal. You know, he's he's kind of like an Irish royalty, really. His picture was on the walls when I was growing up in all all the different family houses and stuff. And when I saw that film, I I just thought, wow, I you know, we've been lied to. Uh his there was a lot more to his assassination than a lone nut. So that was always in the back of my mind. But I I've had a busy career in television, mainly sports, actually, nothing to do in the sort of the height of my career in in TV, but I have worked in TV news as well when I was working my way up. So I've I've done a lot of research as well, which is important, I think, doing this kind of work. Um, a lot of film research, a lot of news research. So it all sort of moved up to 2020, guys, where I was uh like everybody just swinging my thumbs and in the early days of the lockdown, quite enjoying uh parking everything, and just I had a for the first time in a long, long time, I felt like I had a free mind and it was open and I was relaxed and I was actually really enjoying it, to be honest with you. Lots of long walks with the dogs and stuff, and just yeah, it was great. Uh lovely to put everything on pause. And I was just listening to a podcast, which you guys probably know called Black Ops Radio, which is a JFK assassination podcast with brilliant Len O'Sanick, and they were talking about the JFK, obviously. And then Jim Diaginio, the the brilliant researcher who's often featured on the show, he was uh he got to a letters section at the end of the show. Now, normally at this point, I turn and no offense to Jim, but I turn off that point. I think I've I've I've heard all the main information in the show, so I'm just gonna now move on and go to another podcast. But for some reason, thank God I did, I kept listening. And someone wrote a letter in to Jim and Len on this show saying, What do you think about the doorman at the Dakota when John Lennon got assassinated being a CIA operative? And I just thought, well, that's uh that's interesting. Never knew that before because my only previous thing about the Lennon assassination was as a 14-year-old being told it was a lone nut who had a book and he was a bit crazy and he was a Lennon fan and he shot John and it's an open and shut case and he admitted it. So I I never bothered to even think about it. It was just so obvious that this guy who admitted it did it. So that can't have been a Jeff K sort of thing. But this CIA sort of guy, that's interesting. So I went home that day, literally that day, started to Google this doorman, Jose Padermo, Cuban. Um, and there was a Jose Padermo who was a CIA operative, very serious dude, who was head of an assassination group called OP 40, a bunch of right-wing Cubans who were going to go in after the bear pigs and uh and do a cleanup for anybody that didn't go with the new right-wing program. So, this, you know, if this was the Jose Padermo working the door when John Lennon was assassinated, I thought, wow, that's serious. That's like that's not a coincidence. That's like one of the world's most famous assassins was working the door when there was one of the world's most famous assassinations. Gotta be linked. I've subsequently found out Jose Padermo is a very common name in Cuba, and it wasn't. OP 40, sorry, yeah, Jose Padermo was not Dakota Jose Padermo. They got very different age groups, and we know a fair bit about Dakota Jose, different people altogether. But they concealed his name after the murder for seven years, so he became a bit of a kind of mystery figure. They never described anybody that was there that night in the media. The media were completely asleep. So all the main players, apart from Yoko One, were completely kept in the dark from the from the public. So once I'd gone through the Jose Padermo kind of initial research, I just started to look at the murder itself, you know. Okay, so where was he shot? Okay, he's walking in, he was with his wife. And then I started to kind of go through some different reports, and I just thought, hang on a minute, there's a real lack of detail here. Like, where was he shot? And what did he do after he was shot? And where what was his wife doing? And who else was there? And and then I started to keep digging and digging and digging, and then eventually it all just completely exploded when I spoke to the surgeon.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

Interesting. Interesting. So in our previous episode, we discussed what John was up to from the 60s up until 1980. Could you take us through Mark David Chapman?

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yeah, sure. Um Chapman was uh a typical child of the 60s and early 70s. He um was born in 1955. So once the Beatles turned up, he's kind of like uh, you know, 9, 10, 11. He's a fan, but he's a fan of all music. Chapman's big hero was actually a guy called Todd Rungren. He wasn't a massive John Lennon fan.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

He was a huge Todd Runggren fan.

The Doorman Mystery And Media Silence

Who Was Mark David Chapman

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Yeah, Todd's Todd's a genius. Todd, you know, those run of albums in the 70s. Incredible, incredible artist. So that was that was Chapman's main thing. He had a military father, don't they all? A bit of a distant father, who then went and left the military and went to work for a bank. He had a nurse mother, he had a sister, real cookie-cutter, southern. He was initially born in Texas, I think, and then he moved to Decatur, Georgia. So a classic Southern childhood. He was into music, he had lots of friends, he was very sociable, nothing weird about him. He wasn't into Catching the Rye, that's a complete myth. There's a lot of guys who've gone on documentaries and said, Oh, yeah, I grew up with marketing, I was always reading this book. What a load of nonsense. Do you remember the books your friends were reading when you were 10 guys? You know, it's just it's just ridiculous. So what 10-year-old is going to read Catching the Rive? Anyway, we'll move on from that. So he had a very sort of okay childhood. He started to dabble in drugs around about the age of 14, 15. So late 60s, early 70s, classic LSD time, Jimi Hendrix, psychedelia, you know, everyone was doing it at the time from my research. So him getting into hash and then getting into LSD was a pretty straight progression from you know, with the group of friends that he was hanging out with at the time. He didn't do heroin, that's a complete lie. Again, people try to embellish. Uh, but he was he was seriously into LSD and he had a few weird experiences with that, and he took a lot of it. He was quite he was quite into it, probably too much, and he had some bad trips, some of his friends told me. So that probably didn't do his brain any good. But when he was sort of 15 slash 16, Mark found God, and he found God through a low local Dakota church which was run by a guy called Charles McGowan, Pastor Charles McGowan. And Charles McGowan was um ex-Navy intelligence, which is interesting. And he was in Washington working for Navy Intelligence in 1963, which is a very interesting year to be in Washington working in intelligence. Um, so that's that's who Charles McGowan was. Now, Charles McGowan was a pastor at this point when Mark bumped into him when around about 1970. And Charles McGowan with another friend of his at the time in Decatur, a guy called Harold Blankenship, were trying to set up a new strand of Presbyterianism because they didn't think that Presbyterianism was sort of right-wing enough for them, and they were slightly concerned about all of the kind of liberal stuff like allowing women to be preachers and same-sex marriage and abortion rights. They wanted it to go further to the right. So they set up a new Presbyterian organization called the PCA, the Presbyterian Church of America. And Harold and Charles were the kind of two of the sort of initial founding fathers, with a lot of other more far-right, I would say, people. Not a nice bunch of people, really, but very hellfire-ish kind of types who were all about, you know, you've got to follow the Bible, and that's that. So these are the kind of people that Mark Chapman was getting involved with. Harold Blankenship's daughter was called Jessica, who Mark had a crush on when he was 15, 16. So she was kind of almost the lure that sort of brought Chapman into Harold and Charles's kind of orbit. Then, very strangely, when Mark was sort of 15 slash 16, when he got off LSD, got off drugs, and started to go to Christian camps, he was sent with Jessica via Charles and Harold to a guy called Mr. Krauss, who was a sort of can I describe him as a kind of crazy exorcist? But of course, in Presbyterian circles, they wouldn't use that Chris that Catholic term. They called them, I think, deliverance guys. They sort of deliver you from evil spirits. So Mark was starting to have these, as he described it, and Jessica's described it, there's these really disturbing sessions with this guy. It was like a group thing, and there was like, you know, they were trying to cast demons out of Mark, and there was guys pressing down on his chest and pressed down his back, saying, you know, you're possessed by demons, you're possessed by demons. And Mark just found all this incredibly troubling. And he said they talked more about the devil and sin than they did Jesus. So and I think that was where Mark was initially, they were starting to sort of, the people who were going to put Mark through an MK Ultra program, were doing what we've read now and lots of research about MK Ultra was sort of basically cracking him. They were cracking, and religious mania is a great way to crack someone's brain, to actually get them to sort of shut half their brain down so that you can actually insert something into that half that they can't cope with the trauma. And this was part of the techniques of MK Ultra at the time that's now come out in lots of documentation and documentaries, and people have actually admitted it who'd worked on those programs. So I think that's where it all started for Mark. And then from that point onwards, it's just a case of Mark hanging out with people that you did wouldn't really expect him to hang out with. So he hung out with a guy called Dana Reeves, who was uh who became a sheriff. Dana was a very different guy to the Christian people Mark was hanging around with. Dana was uh, by all accounts quite aggressive, was very much into guns. And I think this was shaping Mark into a kind of getting Mark familiar with a more kind of violent, aggressive, right wing kind of mindset. Because a lot of Mark's friends told me before he got into Christianity, he was the classic kind of left-wing, hippie, easy-going guy. But once he got into this kind of Christian right-wing nationalistic kind of group led by people like Charles McGowan and Dana Reeves, he became a lot more right wing and a lot more intolerant and a lot more shut down and a lot more secretive. And then, you know, we can we can go on, guys. Do you want me to keep going up until Hawaii or do you want to just sort of jump in at this point?

SPEAKER_03 15:09

I definitely want to get into Hawaii for sure.

Religious Control And MK Ultra Claims

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we would to get to Hawaii, he was to, but Hawaii was 77 when Mark was 22. Um, but I I think before Hawaii, he was he was he he went to theological college, he tried to get into you know doing that kind of thing. He he flunked that, he broke up with Jessica, but he kept going back, interestingly, throughout all of Mark's life, right up until the murder, he kept going back to the Blankenship house. And it's interesting to note that because the the famous um journalist Craig Unger, who worked, I think, for the New York magazine back in the 70s and 80s, great guy, Craig, written some amazing books. Um, he told me that when he went to um speak to Harold Blankenship after the murder, I think it was 1981, he did a really interesting piece for the New Yorker. He said Harold Blankenship, A, was anti-Semitic and very hostile to Craig. But he also said that Harold actually admitted to him that he gave Chapman the idea to kill John Lennon, which I found quite interesting, sort of boasting about that. So I thought that's quite interesting that that that's come from that kind of Christian nationalistic kind of, and that wouldn't surprise me, because I think Harold was potentially using Mark's love for Jessica to keep control over him because Mark kept going back to the Blankenship house constantly, right up until the murder, which I find really interesting. It was almost like there was kind of a control mechanism there in the Blankenship household. Um, so leading up to Hawaii, Mark's flunk theological college, still hanging out with Dana. There's one other slight little detour he's had that was really weird. He went to work for a Vietnamese refugee camp uh for the YMCA. Yeah, not no, not Beirut, actually. No, you're right. I forgot about Beirut. Beirut's different. He started to work for the YMCA, uh, doing stuff like in a YMCA camp locally in Decatur, and for some reason they sent him out to Beirut when he was got a 15, 16, and this was a war zone. And he was he was there apparently working for the YMCA. Mark came back and said, you know, there was there was a lot of gunfire. I found it all rather scary, but for some reason Mark recorded the gunfire on a tape. Don't know why Mark did that, but when he got back from Beirut, McGowan was still in in contact with him, and he got up in McGowan's church and he spoke all about his experiences in Beirut, which, as you guys know, was a very dangerous place for a young Civil War. Yeah, very young Civil War was going on. Yeah, and and there's a lot of talk about unverified, of course, that it was a CIA hotbed, and and of course it would be. They would have they would have a presence there, as no doubt MI5 did and MI6. MI6 will probably there in every other intelligence agency because Lebanon was uh was a hub of all kinds of activity in the Middle East at the time. But then after after Beirut and Lebanon, he then went to work for a refugee camp, forget where it was now, Fort Chaffee, I think it was. And uh this was again under the auspice of the YMCA, and he became a counsellor for these Vietnamese refugee kids who were coming in from Vietnam and their parents were killed and they were coming in, and Mark was looking after them. And he got under the Mark got under the sort of spell of a guy called David Moore, who was another one of these kind of Christian guys who were controlling him, and Mark lived with with David, which is really interesting. And David Moore is another one of these guys, a bit like Dana Rees, where there's not a lot you can find about these guys, they're quite mysterious, but they're always there guiding Mark through this kind of journey. So there's a there's a red herring about that camp, that refugee camp, because Mark was working there for the YMCA, but World Vision were all also there. Now, World Vision has got some they've got some links with John Hinckley's father, I think he was one of the sort of major founders of World Vision. So everyone's kind of connected, going, Oh, Mark Chapman, Fort Chaffee, World Vision, John Hinkley, it's all a bush plot. It's a red herring. He was there, YMCA were there, World Vision were there, there were lots of other Christian groups there. Mark did his job. I suspect he might have been conditioned there, there might have been some nefarious stuff going on in that camp. But the Hinckley thing, I think, is a bit of a red herring. So after World Vision, he then decides, to the shock of all of his friends, that he's just going to fly to Hawaii. Simply said, I just want to go Hawaii. Now, there's been all kinds of reasons given why. David Moore said that he gave him the idea, because he said it's paradise, go over there, Mark. Why don't you? You've got nothing to lose, you've got no job, you've got no girlfriend, why don't you go and live in paradise? Chapman has subsequently said he went there to kill himself, maybe, maybe not. Um, that's and he wanted to be in paradise when this happened. Uh, but he just went there, just completely out of the blue. And what I would say to you guys is if you were running a Navy intelligence, because Navy intelligence is a theme that runs through Mark Chapman's life with regards to people like Charles McGowan, who were always in contact with him, who were Navy intelligence people. But if you were running an MK Ultra program through Navy Intelligence, which we know, which we now know Navy Intelligence did, through a guy called uh Thomas Neurat, Commander Neurat, who actually told a Sunday Times journalist in 1974 that Navy Intelligence did have an MK Ultra program, so you let that one slip. Um, where would you do it? Where, where, where would you what would be the best place for the US Navy intelligence to run an MK Ultra program? I I would surmise that would be Hawaii, where you have countless secret bases and you could get on with it off the mainland, and you could program the guys through a hospital and you could have them ready to go whenever you needed them to go. So the hospital that Mark ended up in after he allegedly tried to commit suicide, and slightly not sure whether he did or not, Mark thinks he did, but it's all a bit on the nose. He said, you know, I I put a hose in my car, and then a Japanese fisherman came along and saved me, and I didn't get the hose fitted right, and I was sent off to this hospital on the other side of the island. Just doesn't quite fit for me, but we'll go with it. Let's say he did do that. But the hospital that he ended up in was called Castle Memorial, which was run by the Seventh-day Adventists. We're a very interesting bunch of sort of Christians who have a very tight link with the US military. They've often in the past given up some of their followers, their conscientious objectors, to be guinea pigs for the US military. So there's a kind of strange relationship there between the Seventh-day Adventists and the US military, which would have been quite convenient for what a doctor said happened to Mark when he was in Castle Memorial Hospital, because according to a doctor called Dr. Bernard Salzman, he said Mark was put through a brainwashing program there. And he was put through a brainwashing program very similar to MK Ultra. And Saulzman went to the press in 81. He he talked about the drugs they were using on Mark, like Thorazine, you know, classic MK Ultra drugs. And the press completely ignored it. They apart from a music paper called the NME, who did an interview with Saulzman in 81, nobody picked up on this because they were all just so fixated with Catching the Rye and you know, John's Dead, and let's listen to Imagine Again. Let's not talk about some crazy conspiracy theory that was happening in a hospital in Hawaii. But I'm pretty sure that in Hawaii, Is where Mark's programming was complete to get him ready to be switched on, sent off to be to be a Patsy, which is what I think happened. How does he meet Gloria? Gloria's this is again fascinating and again very strange. He's in the hospital, he's been treated for his suicide. But if you believe Solzman, he's going through an MK Ultra brainwashing program. Once he's done that, and once he's cured, he becomes a janitor at the hospital. They give him a job there, which is very strange. So he's in the basement sweeping away. And according to legend, he decides he wants to go on a worldwide trip, you know, as as you do when you're a janitor. Yeah. So we're not quite sure where where the cash came from for this, but uh apparently it was a loan. According to the Castle Memorial Hospital, they loaned their janitor.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

Well, that's always my question. Is where did our money come from for all these things? He's flying around, he's going here, he's in Hawaii. I mean, I don't do that.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

Prior to the time he shoots John, he goes to uh Chicago. Yeah, he seems to have a lot of money for a janitor. Travels around a lot. Travels around a lot. Did he have a painting collection as well?

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Yeah, there was, but yeah, we'll get to that. Yeah, when he gets back from the world tour, he starts to collect art, you know, really high-end art. Again, money, no problem. Um, but but yeah, it it the whole Hawaii thing, there's there's just he was hanging out with some very nefarious characters. That's all been hidden now. Uh, it's all been put under the carpet. But he was hanging out with a son of an Hawaiian detective and some of his friends, and they were being quite aggressive and strange. And when the murder happened, the media went to Hawaii and this this detective's son completely skipped the island. So there were people around Mark Chapman in Hawaii that have been completely buried from the official narrative, but but they're there, and it he was being controlled every second of the day, Mark, when he was there. But let's get back to this world trip. So he decides he wants a world trip. The the very benevolent um Castle Memorial Hospital Credit Union decides, yeah, sure, we'll give you all the money, all the thousands, and it must have cost thousands because he literally he flew everywhere. He went to the Far East, he went to Europe. You know, there was nowhere that Mark didn't go. It's easier to actually name the countries that he didn't go to than actually the countries that he did. He went to a lot of countries. So he goes into a travel agency and he uh he talks to someone at the desk and says, I want to travel the world. Initially, he said it was a Far East thing, but then it became a world, global world trip. The girl that he initially spoke to um was you know dealing with him, but then there was another woman in the travel agents called Gloria Chapman who decided to kind of step over her colleague and contact Mark unilaterally and say, actually, you should talk to me, Mark. I'm I'm the one that can really give you an amazing global trip. So it's quite interesting that Gloria kind of forced her way into Mark's kind of arrangements, let's say. And then they they became quite close and there was a lot of flirting going on, apparently. And then when Mark did go on his trip, he often sent Gloria postcards and it was all kind of quite flirty, and I can't wait till I get back to see you, blah, blah, blah. But before we get to that, though, what is again not known, and it's it should be known because it's incredible, is the first place Mark went to when he went on this global trip was was Mount Fuji in Japan in the summer of 1978. It just so happens at the same time Mark Chapman was there in Mount Fuji, Japan in 1978, so was John Lennon, and so was Yoko Ono and so was Sean, all staying at exactly the same place. Now, that is that a coincidence? I I would say no. I would say, was Marx stalking John Lennon? Potentially, was he going to be taken out in Japan in 78? Potentially. Obviously, that didn't happen, but what's interesting is Marx never discussed this. He's never said, Oh yeah, I'm obsessed with John. Always was, that's why I killed him. And I stalked him in 78, and I was hanging around in the same place in Japan that he was. Marx never mentioned it, the media's never mentioned it. Very, very bizarre. And then after Mount Fuji, Japan, Mark went to India, he went to Nepal, he went to Iran, would you believe, guys? So this is pre-revolutionary Iran, very dangerous place at the time. Lot of lot of kind of uprisings.

SPEAKER_03 26:17

I mean, the uprisings were happening at the time and the revolution. I mean, they took the hostages in November 79. So a lot of stuff was going on there. Seems to be showing up at hot spots throughout the world.

Beirut, Refugee Camps, And Strange Mentors

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Yeah, kind of like a secret agent kind of thing, like a kind of amateur. It's possible that that he was an assassin prior to I I don't think they get I don't think that's how they sold it to him. I think they just said, look, Mark, we want you to work for the government, it's a secret program, we want you to go to Europe, we want you to go to India, we want you to go to Iran, you're gonna meet a guy, give him a package. I I think there was a kind of like a kind of amateur James Bond kind of persona they were feeding into him. Like, Mark, you know, you're a really important guy, and we're gonna send you off here to do this. Because, you know, he went to Switzerland, he went to Paris, he went to London, you know, he went everywhere. And it's kind of like it's it's kind of money no problem. And I I just think there was there was a potential setup there that it was like, you know, that we you know, you're one of us, Mark, and you this and I think that's how they they managed to get him in certain positions, possibly how they managed to get him in New York before the event as a kind of undercover kind of guy there to sort of scope things out. There's two theories, and and both have got a great, great kind of weight for me. One is they really managed to split Mark's brain, and you had the killer on one, and you had the kind of nice, meek mark on the other, classic MK Ultra setup. Or there was, like in in Oswald in JFK, there were two marks, and there was a mark, you know, we'll get to it, the the kind of James Taylor mark, I'm sure, when we get to the day of the murder, where there was a more aggressive mark hanging around New York, you know, laying down a legend that Mark Chatham was an aggressive guy who was going to kill somebody. So it's very hard to say, potentially both. You know, there Mark was allegedly approached, well, we know he approached the kind of very dubious film director Kenneth Anger, you know, so-called, so-called Satanist, and gave him some bullets. And that's true, because I've got the document that the police made out saying that Kenneth Anger actually went to the police and said, Look, this guy's giving me these bullets after the murder. So that probably did happen. And Mark was he was attacking Scientologists in Hawaii, again, in a very aggressive way. That's all true. You know, the Scientologists have put this on the record that Mark was constantly harassing them in a very aggressive way. But then you talk to other people and they say, That's not Mark. He was a meek and mild guy. So there seemed to be this kind of dual personality thing going on. And whether that was all done in one brain or whether there were two people playing two roles, it's really hard to say. But what we do know is that you know, Hawaii and Castle Memorial and the Round the World Trip was all very dubious and all very well paid for. When he got back from Round the World Trip, when he's in the airport waiting to get his suitcase, Gloria's there waiting for him with a broken foot. So she was really keen to be there, you know, in this room, this romantic reunion. Hi, here I am, and you know, we're and then from that point onwards they got married. She became Mark's, you know, confidant. And Gloria is, you know, a woman that's got a lot of questions to ask because when Mark first went to well, we should get to the summer of 1980. I need to put this all in order. The summer of 1980, Mark's lost his job as a security guard in Hawaii. Gloria is still working at Castle Memorial. She's left the travel agency, she's now working at the hospital that Mark was being treated in. Um, so it's all very cozy. And in the summer of 1980, Mark starts to become obsessed with Capturing the Rye, the book. Okay, first time ever. It wasn't it wasn't his childhood thing. He just suddenly that book became very important to him. He asked Gloria to read it. He wrote people letters about how obsessed he was with it. And at the same time as he was getting obsessed with Catching the Rye, he was also getting obsessed with John Lennon. Suddenly, John Lennon became his fixation. To use Mark's own word, it became a compulsion. And it is all about Catcher in the Rye and John Lennon, all in the summer of 1980. So November 1980, Mark flies over, end of October, November, he flies over to New York to kill John Lennon. He brings a gun with him, but he realizes that he doesn't have bullets. Okay, so he doesn't have bullets. So what does he do? He contacts his friend Dana, good old chief sheriff down in Atlanta, goes down. Dana very, very kindly gives him some bullets. Says, there you go, Mark. Apparently, Mark says he wanted it for muggers. Very dubious that Dana gave him the bullets. Checked in with blankenship again. Good old Harold and Jessica. Always, Mark, all throughout his life, he always checks in with the blankenships, flies back up to New York, and then for some reason, he doesn't follow it through. He doesn't follow through the murder. He rings up Gloria said, I'm coming home. But he told Gloria when he got home what he did. He said, Here's my gun. I was going to New York to kill John Lennon. I just got this compulsion to kill him. Your love for me has saved me. Blah, blah, blah. I've thrown my gun away. Everything's great. So then four weeks later, he says to Gloria, I'm going back to New York to write a children's book, allegedly. And Gloria goes, Okay, fine. Yeah, sure, no problem. And Gloria, being an ex-travel agent, booked his plane tickets and went in the taxi with him to the airport. Okay, bye, Mark. Off you go. I know you said four weeks ago you went to kill John Lennon, but I'm sure you're not going to do that now. And off he goes. And Gloria has a lot of questions to answer. She really does. And I contacted Gloria a few years back and sent her an email and said, Look, I've got a lot of anomalies about the case, a lot of anomalies about your husband. I think he might be a Patsy. We need to talk. And she just went, I've contacted Mark about your request, which I didn't ask her to do, by the way. And uh we prayed about your request to talk to me, and we've decided not to go through with it. And I think what Gloria was doing there is she was basically saying to me, if you want to get to Mark, you've got to go through me. And I'm not letting you get to Mark. So you'd think any loving wife, which she still puts herself up to be, would want to know what the anomalies are that might, you know, help my husband. But she's not interested in that, Gloria. I I think Gloria Chapman was an accessory to murder, if you believe Mark Chapman did it. And um, I don't understand why she wasn't questioned about the murder. And it's really interesting that when Mark was in a cell two, maybe three hours after the murder at the 20th precinct, Gloria somehow, incredibly, managed to find the phone number, managed to find that the police station that Mark was in, managed to find the phone number and ring up the 20th precinct and have a chat with her husband. And at the time, a lot of the cops were like going, How the hell did she get this number? How is this happening? How is she ringing in? And if you listen to the conversation between the two of them, it's it's very painful. It's kind of like two people who know they're being listened to, who are trying to give information to each other, but don't want to say what they really want to say. It's it's almost like a kind of code. It's it's really, really bizarre. And yeah, I think Gloria Chapman is a highly dubious individual.

SPEAKER_03 33:12

What do you think the chances are that she's an intelligence operative or was an intelligence operative? Very high.

Hawaii, Castle Memorial, And Brainwashing

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Very high. Very high. I I think she's said on a Christian website that she lived a somewhat immoral life before she met Mark on her travel agency work. And I think immoral could mean all c all sorts of things. But possibly if you are living an immoral life abroad as a young Hawaiian girl, you might have got yourself into a few issues that might have allowed you to be compromised and you have to work for people to make sure those issues don't come out, or potentially part of the that immoral life was her being, you know, doing something in an intelligence vein. Who knows? I'm just, you know, surmising here what what what could be possible. Gloria is a completely closed book. She had a she had a father who ran a small bakery in Hawaii, not particularly rich, pretty staple. She had sisters. The father I think he became a groundsman when he retired. This art collection you were talking about earlier, because just before Marx died to you know, go think about going to New York to shoot John Lennon in the late sort of August time, September, October in 1980, he became an obsessive art collector and he was buying lithographs for darlions, things like that. And apparently the money came from Gloria's father, from his father-in-law. But from what I can see, the father-in-law wasn't particularly rich. You know, he had to go and work after he retired from the bakery, so he wasn't sitting on a big fat pension. So again, money always a problem. And he, I think he had something like two and a half thousand dollars in his in his wallet the night of the murder, the night, the night John was murdered. He had an enormous amount of money with him. And for how long of a period of time was he unemployed? Um, prior to pretty much all of 1980, the whole year, pretty much. Yeah, so he was kind of he had a lot of time in his hands. Uh, he was a security guard on and off throughout 1980, had some gigs there opposite the Scientology Center, but not a lot of work. Apparently, he was drinking a lot. Who knows? Some of the people he were hanging out with, quite interestingly, were quite overtly gay, which is interesting. Uh, and I think he was actually living in one of these the police officer's son I told you about was a gay guy, and Mark was living with him for a while. Now, you're not going to hear any of this in the official narrative. This guy's been completely expunged. I think the fact that his father was a very high-up Hawaiian police chief has allowed this guy to be, you know, we we know his name, the guy's sadly dead now, so I can't get to him. But, you know, Mark wasn't this kind of trouble-drinking husband of Gloria. He was out there hanging out with some very strange guys, not just the police chief's son, some other people as well, some sort of rock and roll type guys who were taking drugs. It was all very odd. And it's all been covered up. And, you know, that whole Scientology obsession that Mike Mark had, it's almost like a kind of dry run to see how far we can push Mark. How far will he go? Because interestingly, the Scientologists in Hawaii that Mark was attacking, the center, was having a legal battle with the people who were running Castle Memorial Hospital, the chief psychiatrist there, because the Scientologists didn't believe in psychiatry, and they were actually trying to give psychiatric patients rights so they didn't have to take the drugs that Castle Memorial were making psychiatric patients take. So isn't it interesting that Dr. Mee Lee, the chief doctor at Castle Memorial that was overseeing Mark Chapman's treatment, was having a legal battle with the Scientology Centre that Mark Chapman was strangely attacking months leading up to the murder? Is that a coincidence? Or was perhaps Mark programmed by the people in Castle Memorial to attack one of their enemies to see just how far Mark would go, possibly. Who knows?

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Or a dry run or something like that. Dry run.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yeah. See what goes on. But that whole Hawaiian Mark Chapman experience, it's never been properly investigated. And the only reason I can tell, sorry, the only reason I can tell you this stuff is Barnett Sulzman, this doctor who was working at Castle Memorial, this psychiatrist psychiatric doctor, he came out in 1981 and he gave a really long interview to the British music newspaper, the NME, and said, look, this is what they've been doing to him. He's been brainwashed, and we're we're giving him thorazine, and you know, he's been programmed to kill in our hospital, and the world's media completely ignored it, which is just shocking.

SPEAKER_03 37:43

Hawaii is fascinating because of uh you know how I look at the money associated with him, this you know, world trip and and buying art, and uh, you know, when he gets busted, he has uh over two grand on him, but he hasn't been really working steady. I mean, you know, we're talking 1980 money, so that's you know, that's a lot more than two grand now.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Yeah, and he was constantly being, you know, in touch with hypnotists, which we need to get into once we talk about after the murder. There was a hypnotist called um Jules Bernhardt, who wrote a book called Self-Hypnosis, quite a famous hypnotist in his time. And he said that he was meeting up with Mark, and he only did one newspaper interview after the murder, and he was never heard of again, which always makes me really interested in people like that, who are giving an interview, they say the wrong things, and then they're completely, you know, erased from history. But Bernhardt said that he was, you know, he knew Mark, and Mark considered himself an avenge avenging angel for Christ. And if and if John Lennon didn't come back into the arena, he wouldn't have been murdered. So you sort of wonder were the people that were programming Mark to think he was killing John Lennon doing it under a kind of like you have to kill this anti-religious, anti-Christ devil, John Work John Lennon, and you're doing it for for Christ, Mark. You're doing it for you know for a bet for a higher glory. It would have been a really easy thing to sell, I think, with Mark, who was always throughout his life constantly thinking about Jesus and the fact that he might have been possessed and you know, trying to do the right thing, go to theological college. Right, you know, and even now to this day, you know, Mark's really got into uh in prison, he's been completely indoctrinated into thinking that he's a preacher now and he preaches to people in prison. He went through a horrendous two or three year period after the murder where preachers were going in, these pastors who no doubt were connected to Charles McGowan, and and basically trying to do exorcisms on Mark, you know, and you know, cast demons from him. And uh for a long time he thought he was possessed. And I think that was all part of a programming thing to get him away from Catherine the Rye, get him away from the programming that actually got him to stand by that driveway on the 8th of December that night, thinking he was doing something that I'm fairly certain he wasn't doing. Um, so yeah, it's that that whole kind of Christian nationalistic right wing cabal, as I call them, around Mark. They it sort of started with Charles McGowan when he was 15, sending him off to Krauss for his exorcism days out, and I think it went right through to the years after the murder. But I it's even continued right up to this day because if you want to get to Mark, not only do you have to go through Gloria, you've got to go through Charles McGowan, who still controls access to Mark Chapman. He's still in touch with Mark, he's still controlling that Mark Chapman prison experience. And interestingly, the day after the murder, Charles McGowan hadn't seen Mark for three years, allegedly, because Mark was in Hawaii, remember, from 77 to 80. And the day after the murder, Charles McGowan is desperate to fly into Mark to see him and uh and be the first person to go and talk to him, which is again really odd. It's like you haven't been his pastor for three years, and suddenly you're desperate to see him. And then when he got there, Charles, he he insisted that um that he um because at the time there had to be a prison guard in the room when someone came in to talk to someone like that. But Charles said, no, no, no, I had to have a private conversation with him between me and God, you know, as you played that that kind of trick. And uh he got Mark's lawyer to get an injunction out to make sure that he got an hour alone with Mark Chapman in his cell before he went in there. Now, why would Charles McGowan need an hour's private chat with Lenin's alleged killer? What what what were they talking about in that one hour? And he got it, you know. Charles got that one hour alone with Mark in his cell. The the guard had to leave and he got Mark all to himself. Why did he have to do that? What was he trying to hide? What was so private? You know, Mark thought he'd done something. The press were all they all they all knew his name because the NYPD said his name two hours after the murder. What was private? You know, but Charles was very keen to make that a private chat.

SPEAKER_03 41:59

So early December was it the 7th, I guess he gets there, 6th or 7th. Allegedly. But we have other people seem popping up in various areas. The uh Yippies that were on uh Bleaker Street by the Bowery, John Denver. Please discuss sightings of Yeah, yeah.

The Funded World Tour And Gloria

Lennon Overlaps: Mount Fuji And Hotspots

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Someone said that they saw someone like Mark Chapman harassing John Denver a couple of days before the murder. We know John Denver was there, so that's possible. The rock singer James Taylor said that he was accosted by someone like Mark Chapman in a subway and pushed him up against the wall. A cab driver called Mark Snyder said he took a Chapman looking like guy around New York, dropping packages off in strange places, and Chapman offered him some cocaine, and he was talking about recording with the Beatles and the Rolling Stones, you know, real crazy what and apparently as he left Snyder's cab, he said, My name's Mark Chapman, don't forget my name. I mean, come on. I mean, that's just hard to believe. But you know, I spoke to Snyder, he's kind of believable guy, up until the fact when he told me that Mark was shapeshifting in the back of his cab, and then I suddenly started to think, maybe you're not as straight as I thought you were, or maybe Mark was a shapeshifter. I'm sure there's plenty of people out there who think Mark Chapman is a shapeshifter, but uh but that's Snyder. And uh a guy called Ed Opperman, who I know you spoke about on your last show, uh podcast, that very famous podcaster told me that you know when he was at the Yippie headquarters, uh a guy like Mark Chapman came up and tried to get into the building. So there seemed to be a very aggressive Mark Chapman in the days leading up to the murder. But if you talk to anybody that was there outside the Dakota leading up to the murder, they'll say, no, no, no, no, that wasn't the guy we spoke to. He was very relaxed, mild, nice guy. The the two super fans, Jerry and Jude, the two girls who went to lunch with him, I think one went to lunch with him, but they both spoke to him a lot throughout the day. They they gave a a statement to Ron Hoffman, the lead detective, which I've got in His notebooks and they said, lovely guy, just a real, you know, southern gentleman. Couldn't have been nicer, couldn't have been sweeter. But they said he knew absolutely nothing about the Beatles, didn't have a clue about the so-called Lennon Super fan. In fact, it was Jerry and Jude that gave Mark the idea to go and buy Double Fantasy that afternoon, the famous record that John Lennon got signed. So that was interesting. So you got you seem to have two different Mark Chapmans. And Mark Schneider, the cab driver I was telling you about, he became an attorney. And he was in court one day and he saw Jonathan Marks, Mark Chapman's second attorney who got the job. And he went up to Jonathan Marks and he said, Do you still have communication with Mark? And Marks at the times did. And he said, Yeah, yeah, I'm still contacting Mark in prison. Mark's thinking about an appeal. He said, Could you tell him, could you ask him, does he remember driving around New York with me the day before the murder and dropping strange packages off and offering me cocaine and talking about recording with the Beatles and stuff? And uh Jonathan Mark said, Yeah, I'll ask him. I'll I'll ask him if he remembers you. And then the next day, Schneider went up to Marx and said, Did Mark remember me? And he said, No, Mark has no idea about who you are or that cap journey. He just doesn't remember that at all. And what's really interesting is Mark was a big music fan, okay, in the 70s. James Taylor would have been well known to Mark Chapman, as he would have been to anyone his age at that time. Marx never ever said, I accosted James Taylor in the subway. Now you you'd think if you did that to such a big music star of the time, you might mention it now and again, but Marx never mentioned it. So I think there was either a kind of brainwashed, aggressive Mark Chapman doing this, the sort of the other side of his brain that was ready to think he was going to kill somebody, or there was a double. And if I had to put money on it, I would say there was a double that was out there looking like Mark, acting like Mark, saying to people, remember my name, mentioning things like John Lennon and the Beatles, recording of them, just to kind of get all it's almost like they're ticking off boxes, like be aggressive, mention John Lennon, say you're taking drugs. Uh, you know, it's just tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. So the legend is set. So once the murder's done, because I I don't actually think Mark Chatham was meant to live, guys. I I think they wanted him to die. I think they wanted him to run, and I think they were going to take him out, Jack Ruby style, somewhere in Central Park or wherever he was going to run to. Because it would have been per you know, it would have been perfect if he did. Because you had his little display in his hotel room. Oh, he had a weird display, so he was a bit of a kook. He was around town a few days earlier being aggressive, so we know he was aggressive, and he was mentioning the Beatles, so he was obsessed about John Lennon, but now he's dead. But hey, it's all done now, nothing to worry about, everything's fine. You know, the lone nut is dead, just like Oswald's dead, we could move on. Poor John, let's play Imagine again. And it would have been perfect for them, but he didn't run, he stood there. And I think people like Gloria ringing into the 20th precinct and people like Charles McGowan rushing to his prison cell is quite interesting, isn't it? That these people were desperate to get to him when they didn't really need to be that desperate. McGowan must have known that there was going to be a long pretrial period. Gloria must have known that her husband was gonna, once he was arrested, he could be contacted at any point. She could fly there and meet him face to face. But she was desperate to ring him. And the first thing she sort of said to him was, Do you know what you've done, Mark? It's almost like kind of just it's like an intel conversation. Tell me what you've done, tell me what you remember. And McGowan, who knows what McGowan said to him? Because McGowan made sure that whatever he said to Mark Chapman in that cell was between him and Mark Chapman. Well, when Mark was in the last hotel, he stayed in two or three hotels before the murder, I think it was a Sheraton, uh, quite an expensive hotel, again, getting back to money no object. Um, he laid a display out on his bedside table, allegedly. And you had a Bible, you had a a picture of Wizard of Oz, the Wizard of Oz film, you had uh a Todd Rungren tape, you had a couple of photos of Mark at Fort Chaffee with some Vietnamese refugee kids. Charles McGow's an interesting guy, he's he's still doing videos. He's quite he's got quite an ego, Charles. He's even admitted that that's one of his big faults, is his ego. And he's he's recently talked, he's apparently the last video he did on some some press. Yeah, he revealed in his last on he revealed in his last video that he's he's writing his memoirs, which I was very excited about. But then, but then he revealed they're gonna be private and only for his family, which was very upsetting. So he's gotta be in his early 90s now, Charles. Yeah, can't can't be long to go. Sadly. Yeah, I think a lot of his secrets are gonna die with him, I suppose. Various other photos, and Mark told people in the NYPD that it that there was a display that he left that would pertain to the murder. That's all he said. He didn't give any d he didn't say he did it, he didn't say why he did it, he just said he left a display that would pertain to the murder itself. So they were a real they were in a real big rush to get access to this room. So you can imagine DA and the NYPD were getting court orders together. You you'd know this, Steve, and they were they were kind of trying to get a court order from a judge to get access to the hotel room to to get hold of the materials, uh, which was denied apparently first time. I've I've got the I've got the court orders that they were trying to seek. And uh initially it was denied, but they did manage to get into his hotel room and get these these items and take photos of them. So it was it kind of built a legend. So if you can imagine if Mark did die either by committing suicide or by someone shooting him as he ran into Central Park, that kind of display would have been a perfect kind of suicide note almost, kind of like, oh, left he's left a little kind of goodbye for us. So it kind of worked in that capacity. But what they failed to tell people, the media and the NYPD and the DA's office, who must have known this, because I've got the document, I've got the evidence voucher. They failed to tell people that Mark had three different lots of drugs in his hotel room. He had two lots of different white drugs and he had a load of red drugs. And the red pills are quite interesting because red pills are the colour authority. So you just wonder whether Mark was on. These were allegedly sent off for testing. Of course, no one knows what came back from those tests. No one knows if those drugs went off for testing until my book came out. No one knew those drugs even existed. But I think with those drugs being in his hotel room, I think that proves that somewhere in the DA's office and the NYPD, they decided that something like that was best the public didn't know about because it's just too complicated. It would get people asking questions, and I think to me that proves that there were people involved in this case that wanted to keep it very low-nut. Don't go digging anywhere you don't want to dig. And the reason we know that for sure is there was a writer called Fenton Bresler who wrote a book about this case in the early 80s. He was a British barrister who was very concerned that there wasn't a trial, and he just thought that's just it's just wrong that there wasn't a trial for this case, and it really troubled him. So he wrote a book about it, and he spoke to a Lieutenant Arthur O'Connor, who was at the 20th precinct that night when Chapman was brought in, and he spoke to him many years later and he said, What do you remember, Arthur? And he said, Well, what I remember is the guy looked programmed. He looked like he was in a daze, he looked like, you know, and I know he said, I know what you're gonna make of that word. He said, But to me, he looked programmed. He said, We didn't do a drug test, we didn't do a proper investigation, he said, for two reasons mainly.

SPEAKER_00 51:36

One, Christmas was coming and we had a hard year, and the guys just didn't really want to go there. And the reason that is they basically were lazy, too lazy to do it. I mean, Christmas is 20 days away, less than 20, but still, yeah. And he said the second reason was he said it was a grounder. We had the guy.

Dual Chapmans Or Split Programming

SPEAKER_01 51:55

He was there on the scene, he said he did it, or he thought he did it. He wasn't completely clear about what he said. I've got his statement from the night of the murder. It's not a clear statement. It's not Chapman saying I shot him four times in the back. It's a really confused guy who says, Oh, I think I did it. I've got nothing against Lennon, I've got nothing against the Beatles. You know, I think I shot him, but I don't know what happened to the gun. I just looked down and I had a book in my hand. It's almost like he didn't have a gun in his hand if you look at his actual original statement. Uh, but there's no detail. So all the detail was filled in much a few hours later by the chief of detectives, James Sullivan, who said, Yeah, his name's Mark Chapman. He called out to John, he shot him in the back. John staggered in. And that was laid down at 2 a.m. John was shot literally three and a half hours earlier, and the legend was set. This is it. This is what happened. They had no chance to get all the witness statements in, they had no chance to check out forensics. James Sullivan laid it out straight away. And just to seal it, a journalist called Greg Katz, who was a freelance journalist, he didn't actually work for Rolling Stone. I got that wrong in my book. He he did feature his article in Rolling Stone the next month in January 1981, but he wasn't a Rolling Stone staffer, he was a nobody, this guy, Greg Katz. But he got into the Dakota that night after the murder because his father, his stepfather, should I say, lived above the very driveway that John was shot in. So that got him access into the building. And his stepfather, would you believe, was a dentist for the US Army. He was the US Army's chief dentist. You can't make this stuff up. So Greg Katz gets in and talks to the concierge Jay Hastings, and we'll get into the mechanics of the murder in a minute. But what Greg and Jay set out that night, John staggered in, fell down on the floor, dropped a tape. That was the narrative. That was where the narrative was set. There was nobody else that got a chance to set the narrative. So you had Greg and Jay having the cozy little chat at 1 a.m. And interestingly, Greg Katz never spoke about this again. He went on and had a really stellar journalistic career. He worked for CNN and travelled all over the world. Never mentioned the scoop of the century. Isn't that odd? You know, he went in there, he set the narrative with Jay, never spoke about it again, which I find really bizarre. So Greg's sadly dead now, so I can't talk to him. But it's very strange why he didn't do that. James Sullivan set the scene, 2 a.m. press conference, 20th precinct. Guys called Mark Chapman, he called out to John, shot him. John staggered in. And that's it, guys. Because there was no trial, that was the narrative. It was set. There was nothing else to do. We got the guy's name. He shot John, called out to him. But the problem is, guys, when you actually take statements from people that were there, i.e., let's get down to it. There were only four people involved, okay, apart from John. There was Yoko Ono, who arrived back with him from the recording studio, okay, when they walked into driveway together, allegedly. There was the doorman, Jose Padermo, the famous Cuban dorman. There was Jay Hastings, the concierge, who was waiting in the concierge lobby office area, waiting for John to walk in, okay? And then you've got a fourth guy, a guy called Joseph Manny, who was a kind of basement crew part-time dorman, who was in the basement, allegedly, at the time of the murder. They're the only people of interest, really. You've got people out on the street of embellished stuff. We can get to them maybe later. But they're the four people that's interesting. So let's start with Jose Padermo, okay? So I'd like to tell you guys what Jose Padermo told the NYPD in the DA's office, what he saw. I can't. The reason why I can't do that is his statements have been buried till this very day. They refuse to reveal Jose Padermo's statements. They revealed everybody else's. They revealed Joe Manny's in 1992, took a while. They revealed um Jay Hastings via Greg Katz Rolling Stone. But Jay Hastings, like Jose Padermo, we don't have his official statement. Because believe it or not, guys, Jay Hastings was not asked to go to the 20th precinct to give a statement. He was not asked to give an official statement. Absolutely bizarre. So the two people that went down there that night from the scene was Jose Padermo, statement buried, and Joseph Manny, statement buried until 1992. So no one heard Joseph Manny's name for 12 years. No one heard Jose Padermo's name for seven years. Jay Hastings was interviewed and got in Rolling Stone in 81. But by the time that article came out, guys, Jay Hastings had skipped. He'd left the Dakota, left his employment. He left two weeks after the murder. And I said to Jay, why did you leave? He said, Oh, they sacked me for being late. No, I'm not going to buy that. I'm not going to buy that you saw and experienced all those things that you said you saw and experienced, and they callously sacked you for being late. That's just not flying. So this is the problem, guys. You know, we should be able to sort of everyone says to me, Oh, so many people saw it. Yoko saw it. People on the streets saw it. Nobody saw it. So let's get down to Yoko. Let's face it, the most important witness, okay, guys? Now, her statement that she gave, the official statement that was released in the 1992 book, that's kind of the most coherent paragraph that she's given. But she gave four other statements to Ron Hoffman in his notebook in the hours after the murder and the following day, which I've got now. And they are all very strange because the official narrative that Greg Katz and Jay Hastings set was after John was shot in the driveway, forget about front and back, we'll get to that in a minute. He staggers in, okay, into a vestibule wooden porch area, walks in, opens that door, pulls the door open, goes in. He's in a kind of foam booth porch area now with glass doors. Walks up six steps, fairly steep, goes through two mahogany doors, probably open, possibly not. Let's say they were open. Goes through those doors. He's in a small lobby area now, turns at the extreme left, goes through a swinging door behind Jay Hastings' counter, and he's now in Jay Hastings' open concierge office. Runs past Jay, staggers past him.

SPEAKER_03 58:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 58:01

There you go. So he's there now. You can see there's the street. Yeah, you can that's that's that kind of sums it all up there. And you can see the stairs there on the top, top right where John's gone up. Yeah, so he's getting comes in, goes up this way, yeah, and then through that. And ends up in a back office, in another office behind Jay's office, face down. Because I've spoken to all the cops that found him, and they all said, Yeah, weird. He was like this, like a child, splat out face down in uh like he's going for like a like a dive in a swimming pool. They said, but face down. Who leaves a guy face down when he's bleeding out with four four bullet woods? Who does that? It's just it's it doesn't make sense because apparently, according to Jay Hastings and Greg Katz reporting in the Rolling Stone, Jay turns him over to see how he is, and he takes his jacket off and puts his jacket over him. He takes John's glasses off and he gets his tie off to do a tourniquet and all these things. Jay has now told me in interviews that I did with him in 2021, he said, No, I didn't do any of that. He said, I didn't have my jacket on, I didn't take his glasses off, I didn't take my tie off. Jay, but Jay is now embellishing. So when he talks to Greg Katz on the night of the murder, he says, John came in, staggered in, fell on the floor, doesn't say which floor, and dropped a tape. That's all he says. Right? He doesn't say he ran into a back office, he doesn't say, doesn't talk to Jay, but now Jay wants us all to believe that as he runs past Jay, he says, I'm shot, I'm shot twice, and runs into a back office and collapses. So Jay's adding now. Jay's Jay's giving us a much easier story to believe how John got from that driveway, being shot in that driveway, and ending up in a back office face down. So he's given us the full journey now.

SPEAKER_02 59:54

But that's common. I mean, I've interviewed a lot of people in my life who, you know, done investigations. Of course. It kind of, as time goes on, they insert themselves larger into the story, right? And almost create a narrative that that puts them there as a player. For sure. For sure. Or the opposite, I don't remember anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:15

Those are the two scenarios. Now, interestingly, Yoko Ono, in her statements, what she should say is John got shot, went in the vestibule, ran up the stairs, ran into Jay's office, ran into a back office, and I followed him because Jay said that Yoko came running in saying, John's been shot, John's been shot. Problem is, Yoko doesn't do that. In all her statements, she says, We got to the door, John said I'm shot, and that's it. She won't go past the vestibule store, vestibule door stair area. She won't go into the lobby, she won't go into Jay's office, she won't go into a back office. All of her statements don't mention any of those things. It's almost like she's not prepared to take the story that far because it's ridiculous. It's interesting. She's not given a statement that match what Jay Hastings and the official narrative are saying, which is really interesting. It's kind of like she's not prepared to go along with it. And after she gave her final statement ten days after the murder, she's never spoken about it again. Ever. So whenever she's gone on on all the hundreds of documentaries that she's gone on over the years since the murder, she talks about that day and she says, Yeah, we were recording, got in a limo, got to hope got home to the Dakota. But she never then goes beyond, and it was terrible. And yeah, I don't, you know, she won't discuss the details. So we have nothing from Yoko that actually fits. Jay Hastings only gave a few brief words to a Rolling Stone guy and wasn't asked to give an official statement. Joe Manny's statement came out 12 years later, and we'll talk about Joe in a second because he's important with regards to the gun. And Jose Padermo's statement is still being concealed. So what you've got is a group of people around a very famous murder who are not giving us coherent full statements that match with the facts that we have to hand. So that to me just stinks.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:08

Before we get to the the shooting and and the statements, I just would like you to touch upon John's security.

November 1980: Abort, Confess, Return

SPEAKER_01 1:02:15

Yeah, good one. Good idea. Good idea. Um John's security was supplied by a guy called Doug McDougall. And what's interesting about Doug McDougall is he was an ex-FBI agent. Okay. Now, like a lot of ex-FBI agents who was in counterintelligence in New York, operating after and apparently going after Soviet spies, KGB spies. I don't know if you guys have ever seen that magnificent program, The Americans, um, about KGB sleeper spies in in America. The people that were chasing them were fairly obsessive and fairly ruthless. And I think the ruthlessness came from both sides. It came from the KGB agents, obviously, and it came from the FBI who were chasing them. So Doug McDougall, being a guy that went after these kind of guys, was a very serious dude. Apparently he was six foot three, big build, Scottish heritage, a serious individual, Doug McDougall. From an unverified source, I was told he worked with a guy called Richard Bates, who ran the Boston FBI office. And Bates and him did a lot of these kind of counterintelligence KGB agent stuff in New York together in the 60s and 70s. So, and I've also heard from another unverified source that they were very much kind of black ops. If we need to deal with someone and throw them off a building, that's not a problem. So we're talking about a very serious individual. Now, how does a guy like that, who apparently, according to people that worked with him, they've told me that he had a very far right, far right, not right wing, far right political persuasion. So how does a guy like that, considering what the FBI did to John throughout the 70s, tracking him and bugging his phone and trying to get him deported, how does an ex-FBI agent like Doug McDougall get to become the Lenin's security in 1980? So I've managed to piece it all together. What's happened is in 1977, John was getting these really weird letters from a Puerto Rican socialist revolutionary group, would you believe, which I believe are fake. I don't believe they're real. The group was real, but I think these letters are fake. They've certainly never taken responsibility for it, the people that are in this group. And these letters are kind of along the lines of, and you can find them all online. If people just put in Puerto Rico, FBI 77, John Lennon, you can read all the files. They've all been released now. A great guy called John Weiner got them all released on FOIs. So basically these letters say, We're gonna kidnap your son uh if you don't give us£100,000. And then the next one would say, You've ignored us, so it's now£120,000, and we're gonna kidnap your son and torture him. And then these these letters go on from the summer of 77 to the spring of 78, okay? And each letter gets a little bit more aggressive, and the FBI get involved, okay? So the FBI get involved because the letters say, almost comically, right from the start, and whatever you do, John, don't contact the FBI. So the next letter, whatever you do, John, don't contact the FBI. So of course, John's frightened for his son, obviously, as any father would be. So he contacts the FBI, obviously. Of course he did. And the FBI say that he contacted him because you can see the correspondence between the two of them. And would you believe, guys, the FBI starts to bug and survey the Dakota in the basement, in the in the lobby?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:39

So now the FBI, interestingly, well they did have their stuff left over from the early 70s, so it probably wasn't such a jump.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:49

Exactly. So they got that so the FBI got their eyes and ears in the Dakota, okay? And would you believe, as they're doing this, Doug McDougall starts to work for the Lennons in seventy? Okay. Of course. He's the guy, no doubt, that they went. Why did he use this guy? This guy will protect you, John. This guy will protect you, okay? He's he's a handy guy, and you need protection because he's putting the kidnapping sound. This guy she loves whiskey. That's how Doug got in. Okay. And Doug was there from 78 right up until 80. But he stopped working for the Lennons allegedly in sort of September time, early autumn in 1980. Allegedly because Yoko was being too free in the press about their comings and goings from the Dakota to the record studios. And Doug allegedly said to Yoko, You need to stop telling people your movements, you're putting yourself in danger. So we've been asked to believe that Yoko then put him on a leave of absence and he was told to not work for them for a while. Which is just doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't make sense on any level. If they're coming and going all the time to record in studios, why would you ask your bodyguard who's asking you to be a bit more careful? Why would you put him on a leave of absence? It just makes no sense. But that apparently is the legend.