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The Lincoln Assassination (Audio): Division, War, and Legacy, Part 1. With Historian Jack Stanley
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The rise and fall of Abraham Lincoln represents one of America's most profound historical narratives – a story of a man who emerged from virtual political obscurity to lead a nation through its darkest hour.
When the Political Encyclopedia of 1860 was published, Lincoln wasn't deemed significant enough to warrant even a single mention. Yet within months, this relatively unknown figure would ascend to the presidency during the most divisive period in American history. His election triggered the secession of Southern states and ignited a conflict that would redefine the nation.
What's rarely discussed is Lincoln's extraordinary unpopularity during his presidency. In the South, he was reviled as an existential threat, while many Northerners criticized his wartime tactics, including the suspension of habeas corpus and imprisonment of newspaper editors sympathetic to the Confederate cause. The history we learn about Lincoln has been sanitized over time, smoothing over the complex and often controversial figure he truly was.
The path to Lincoln's assassination began long before John Wilkes Booth entered Ford's Theatre. Early plots against Lincoln's life were thwarted thanks to Kate Warrens, the first female detective in the Pinkerton agency. Once war broke out, Lincoln demonstrated remarkable political cunning, using the Emancipation Proclamation as a strategic war measure that only freed slaves in Confederate states – areas where he had no actual authority – while maintaining slavery in Union-controlled territories.
Lincoln's cabinet strategy of appointing his fiercest political rivals – men who actively sought his job – demonstrates a leadership philosophy almost unimaginable in modern politics. This "team of rivals" approach helped guide the nation through its bloodiest conflict, culminating in a Union victory that Lincoln would enjoy for only days before his assassination forever altered the course of Reconstruction and American history.
Hello everyone and welcome back to Better Life, new York. I know it's been a long time since we've done one of these podcasts and I apologize. I had been sick and I probably mentioned it a few times COVID COVID Bell's palsy, bad back, injections, flu and finally starting to find my way out, and luckily today we have someone with us today, jack Stanley, quite a quoted historian. Today's topic, though we've talked about other assassinations. We're kind of going to view back in time and to the Lincoln assassination and the events leading up to it and the events after it, and probably make some parallels to today, because a lot of that stuff seems to be going on at the same time, where there's this wide division. But I don't think anything was wider in American history, jack right, other than the division over slavery. So I don't know where you want to start. You want to start with the Missouri Compromise or you want to go a little?
Speaker 2:sooner than that. I think I might be a little too early, but let's kind of just start First off, one of the most fascinating things about Abraham Lincoln, and I want to move some of this stuff around. These are some books here. Is this book right here? And I think this tells an awful lot. I think this is readable, isn't it? Can you see?
Speaker 1:Maybe we will when it's in final form, but right now, no, I'll open it up and put it this way this is the political textbook and encyclopedia of 1860.
Speaker 2:Wow, if you want to know what the world was like or what this country was like, this massive book covers all the various subjects. There's only one person missing from the book Lincoln. Not a single word about Lincoln. Not a single word about Lincoln, which I find really quite fascinating, that 1859 is when this was written, for 1860. And he was so unknown he was basically not talked about much at all, maybe in local areas, more toward Illinois and whatever.
Speaker 2:But in 1860, when this book was already out, all of a sudden he started to become a major force in his speeches and his talks, speaking at Cooper Union. I remember I was at Cooper Union in 2007. One of the individuals I was very fortunate to speak to on the phone was I can't think of his name right now, oh dear, I'll skip that. Oh dear, I'll skip that. I was there for a very important meeting, a funeral, and President Clinton was there and he was standing at the lectern and he was banging on the lectern saying Lincoln spoke here. Lincoln spoke right here and he was so excited about it when he was speaking and it was really quite fascinating. But the thing is that Lincoln really became a force starting in 1860. His speeches, the debates with Douglas in 1858, of course gave him some recognition, but it kind of faded after that. And then in 1860, when the Republican Party was starting to really become a viable party we have to remember it had been founded just like five years earlier and you had Lincoln running. It really caused quite a stir because first off, there were so many factions going on, as we both very much realize how fractured the country was already.
Speaker 2:I've got books of all kinds basically covering the period of 1850 to 1870. And this series of books, all different types, cover a good deal of what was going on in the contemporary view and it's really quite fascinating, as we go through time, how the views have changed, how the understandings have changed, how Lincoln has changed. Lincoln was greatly hated during his lifetime. Lots of people couldn't stand him. The South couldn't tolerate him. In the North they had trouble with him. He was arresting lots of newspaper editors and lots of people who were pro-Southern and basically removing the writ of habeas corpus and therefore just tossing people in jail and throwing the key away.
Speaker 1:Well, there was an assassination plot prior to him even taking office, wasn't it? Yes, the Golden Circle or something, whatever you know? I don't know all that much about them, but I know they were pro-slavery, southern, something to do with the whole lower hemisphere, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know something, it was discovered by a spy. And you know something? It was discovered by a spy. Her name was Kate Warrens and she used to go to southern groups and whatever, and she had a great southern drawl which she would use and she would basically talk to everyone and hear all the scuttlebutt of what was going on. And of course she worked for the Alan Pinkerton organization. She was the first woman detective and she's the one that discovered it and brought it to the attention of Pinkerton. And then of course, they had that whole scene coming into Washington DC in disguise, right, and then Pinkerton was Lincoln's bodyguard at that point, wasn't he?
Speaker 1:Yeah, going down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was with him and several other people were in that train car with him, I do believe, including Kate Warren and Lincoln of course came at a different time. The train that he was supposed to be on was stopped actually in that area, I think in Maryland, but he wasn't on it, which was actually quite good and people made fun of him. After that, of course, the cartoons came out, etc. But this was such a terrible period of time, I mean it's so hard to understand. I mean, today, if we take a look at today, we have the aid of social media, which is basically super inflamed things, but in those days you just had newspapers and magazines, and magazines and newspapers were written, let's say, like the Chicago Democrat or the Maryland Republican, whatever. Then they would be focused on that ideology and everything would be stated to fit that ideology. Very much the same as we have with the Internet, but it was more localized and certainly not as powerfully driven as it is today.
Speaker 1:Well, you could argue that that's exactly what we have on TV news at the moment. Oh yeah, Every, every which. There was a time period that it wasn't. But when you talk about an independent press, when you think of that, it didn't really exist then and it doesn't really exist now.
Speaker 2:It did for a while yes, Getting back, so I can correct myself now I want to. I was at the getting back, so I can correct myself now I want to. I was at the memorial service for Arthur Schlesinger.
Speaker 1:Oh right, Arthur.
Speaker 2:Schlesinger passed away in 2007 and I was fortunate to be able to go to it and I was able to talk to him on the phone and talk about Kennedy administration a little bit and other presidents and stuff, and at that time there were all these interesting people that came to Cooper Union and spoke, including Bill Clinton, edward Kennedy, lauren Bacall and a bunch of other folks. It was really quite an amazing event and a bunch of other folks. It was really quite an amazing event. But Lincoln, getting back to him, is an amazing subject. He's so many different faces. He's covered by so many different opinions. He's covered by various historians in very different ways. You bring up a subject and you can do pro and con with Lincoln quite often.
Speaker 2:You know, as we were talking about before we started this and I think I'll bring it up right now so we can talk about it and that is the Corwin Amendment of 1860. And of course, that was the 13th Amendment to the Constitution. It had been approved by the Senate and the Congress and it was off to the states to approve. Now the thing is, what was it? It was basically to recognize slavery where it existed and to make irrevocable the removal of slavery from where it now exists. Now Lincoln even mentions this in his inaugural address, but he's a little coy on it. He knew everything about it. Seward had come and briefed him. Seward's people came and briefed him. Lincoln read everything. But in his inaugural address he says I hear there is a new amendment to the Constitution I don't know of its name, something to that basic. I'm paraphrasing. And he said, but I am in full agreement with it, that it basically makes things right and irrevocable in the area of servitude. They didn't use slavery.
Speaker 1:Right. So just to quote how they spoke about it in the original text of the amendments, is no amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give the Congress the power to abolish or interfere within any state with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said state. They never really mentioned the word slavery. No, no, they spell out the institution pretty well.
Speaker 2:Yes, they do, and it's a fascinating thing. Had you know, think about this. Had that gone through a few months earlier, that could have very well have become the 13th Amendment.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it had passed four states already.
Speaker 1:We had run in. You know, they came up with this great solution it will take a free state with a slave state right Somewhere along the line, yeah, and then, as states come in, and then they wouldn't have a slave state, so, like in Kansas' case, they make it a slave state which is totally divided, and they have a civil war itself inside the state of Kansas. Yes, indeed, and the phrase I'm sure you've used before bleeding Kansas, which is what it was called at the time where people were fighting. So think about this it isn't just North and South, it's individual states that are coming on at the same time, and Lincoln is elected president of the United States.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what a mess If you think about it.
Speaker 2:I mean familiar everyone what a mess you have to think with Kansas. The interesting thing I always like to call it to my classes. Years ago I used to call it the pilot plant for the American civil war, because basically that's what it was. They had two different constitutions in the state and of course, bleeding Kansas is a is a mess. There's there's problems throughout the state and of course, bleeding Kansas is a mess. There's problems throughout the country and of course a lot of it goes all the way back to the Compromise of 1850.
Speaker 2:And you know you had the Fugitive Slave Act. That was part of that. That really started the abolitionist movement getting very strong up in Massachusetts. And then again you have Douglas with popular sovereignty. Instead of for us say, let the state say, and then that starts a whole big mess. And Lincoln gets elected and he's put into this and he's ill-equipped. You know, if you think about it, he really doesn't know what to do. And it's interesting to read the criticisms of Lincoln early in his administration. They're saying he's basically another Buchanan, because Buchanan his statement was that according to the Constitution it's illegal for a state to leave the union. But it's also against the laws of the union to force the state to stay in it, which is just going around in a great big circle.
Speaker 1:Right, but the theory of the perpetual union, I think that's Madison right from the.
Speaker 2:Federalist Papers, is it? Yes, so it's a fascinating thing when you think about it. So of course, Lincoln's elected and then of course the war starts. I mean, the South has seceded already, basically going back to the end of December they start. The end of December they start, and then in January and February come March and April, then we get all the way up into Virginia and once Virginia goes, there's no stopping the whole thing.
Speaker 2:I think because Virginia was such a powerful, powerful state and of course it had great, great individuals. Even the commanding general of the Union at the time, winfield Scott, was from Virginia and Robert E Lee was asked by Lincoln to become the general-in-chief. And it is a fascinating interchange between Scott and Lee. There's a fascinating interchange between Scott and Lee where Scott brings Lee to his office and tells him that he should become the general and Lee basically says I'm going to resign my commission and join the South. And Scott's words were so prophetic. He said you're making the worst decision of your life and he was.
Speaker 1:And of course Well, it's funny Lee's background too. I mean Lee and Grant. Both were at the academy, right, both went to the military academy at West Point. Of course Lee graduated in the top of his class and Grant kind of graduating at the bottom of his class.
Speaker 2:But he excelled in art. Is that what it was?
Speaker 1:So it's really interesting. I mean, they all fought in the Spanish-American War and they all fought together and all the generals from both sides basically fought together for such a long time until the Civil War. And you know the battle cry of Virginia, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, it's an interesting thing that we haven't really brought up yet. That is a very important thing, and that is John Brown.
Speaker 1:I was thinking of that when we were talking before, but I didn't want to bring it up in the wrong place and I don't remember the year it was 1859. Okay, so that's another catalyst, like Kansas.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and the interesting thing is that John Brown had been involved in Kansas, very much so, and he led revolts and there were fights and there was murders, and he was very strongly religious and basically used religion with his authoritarianism and was basically killing slave owners.
Speaker 1:My father used to say the most dangerous person in the world is a true believer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and of course then he wants to basically create a slave revolt in Harper's Ferry, and it fails miserably. But who is the person in charge of his capture, custer, arrest and eventual execution? Robert Ely.
Speaker 1:That was close. Custer was in there somewhere.
Speaker 2:Custer becomes a big deal in the Civil War indeed. But John Brown works so hard to create himself in an image. He writes letters constantly, nonstop, gives interviews. He writes letters constantly, nonstop, gives interviews. In fact, I have the book here, which I didn't pull out, that was written with the approval of the family and it's the first book written on him, which is really quite fascinating, and it basically calls him a martyr, a victim and a steward for liberty. It's really quite fascinating and that really has a wild effect, as does the Dred Scott decision. All of these various things that take place. They just, each one is more or less taking a piece of wood and hammering it in to the country and separating it further and further and further apart.
Speaker 1:Well, it's funny. John Brown always made me think of the ancient Greek story of Oedipus the king. Right where they want to bury, he wants to bury his enemy. His wife or whoever it was wants to bury the enemy and he forbids it. Right and the fought between natural law, the right of anyone to be buried under the gods at that point, and the king's edict nobody's to bury them. You know, it just reminds me of that eternal conflict between natural law and man-made law.
Speaker 2:Agreed. There's something else I want to share with you and I'm not going to use it right now, but I'll just pull it out here. This thing is a monstrous thing. This is a scrapbook made during the Civil War and it's filled with newspaper reports and it's. Where on earth did you get that? I found it. I find things all over the place and it's almost impossible for me actually. Let me see if I can do this.
Speaker 2:This is actually about Lincoln's assassination right here. It's not very easy to see and I know I realize we're just looking through a little camera here, but this is fascinating material. Once again, I'm always interested in contemporary views and behind me, behind me on the shelf here, is all bound Harper's Weeklys between 1850 to 1860. And it talks about and it's fascinating because you see that the whole country is slowly breaking apart. In each one of these they say they have a thing called recent historical events and it basically chronicles the country slowly falling apart. And we could go on for a month of Sundays on this because there's so much that took place, but we have to get back to.
Speaker 2:Mr Lincoln, Otherwise I'll start an engine about everything here, the tall guy with the funny hat yeah, we can't get rid of some of these books here. Now. Lincoln gets elected, and not by a majority, of course. The Democratic Party splits three ways and that guarantees Lincoln's going to win. I mean, any time a party splits more or less guarantees that the other will win. And he is president and the country is only half. In fact, he wasn't even on the ballot in the southern states, I mean, it was only the north that elected him, basically.
Speaker 2:Now, an interesting thing also a lot of times we just talk about slavery, and slavery is a major, major issue. You know, people always say it was about states' rights. Well, let's look at it this way Weren't various states approving of slavery and other states not? And so I mean a lot of the arguments about states' rights were still over slavery, and it was also over tariffs. Lincoln was very, very big into the Henry Clay and the American plan, which was all about internal improvements and high tariffs. And, of course, what was the South's major business? Cotton. And who were the buyers of their cotton? All of Europe, england, france and the North as well. They were producing so much of the cotton of the world. There's an interesting thing that people often talk about and I know I'm bouncing around here, sorry about that, please, but in 1850, we have to remember the Compromise of 1850, which is an interesting document because first off, the president did not approve of it, zachary Taylor, and everyone said, my God, it's going to happen, because everyone was screaming of civil war. And then, of course, taylor dies and his vice president says I'll sign it. You know, I don't want to deal with this. And so he does what everyone else had done he kicks it down the road.
Speaker 2:But an interesting thing that doesn't get brought up very often is in 1850, cotton, basically for England, was coming from the south of the United States. It was a very, very strong industry. A good deal of it, not all of it, but a good deal of it. In the 1850s, india becomes the jewel in the crown for the United Kingdom. And what do they produce? Their cotton. A good deal of the cotton comes from india at that point, and this changes the perspective, if you think about it, in 1850, had a civil war taken place, there's a very good chance that england would have come to the aid of the south due to the fact of the cotton, which was so important In 1860, the averages had changed greatly. They were still very sympathetic to the South and built warships for them and stuff like that, but I think that things changed drastically because of the cotton and the availability from India. That had a profound effect that doesn't get talked about too much at all.
Speaker 1:No, you see the opposite being talked about, that basically, most of the it's just agriculture in the South and it's just cotton built on the backs of slaves. Right, it's also tobacco, but oh, tobacco is a big also tobacco, but mostly cotton.
Speaker 2:Tobacco is a big thing too. Yeah indeed.
Speaker 1:Also tobacco. But you know, until the cotton gin too, they were picking the seeds out by hand. So it was totally different. They needed slave labor to do that, agreed. And in the north there were factories, there were cannon factories, there were other things. And there's that great line from Gone with the Wind where Rob Butler says, when they're talking about the grandiose plans of war, and he says, well, there's not a cannon factory in all the South, and they say, what does that matter to a gentleman?
Speaker 2:And he says it's going to matter to a lot of gentlemen, and it's true.
Speaker 1:So to a lot of gentlemen, yeah, and it's true. So the North did have that, they had the industry, they had the Navy for bottled up their harbors and blockades, right so? But even so, lee pretty much out. Before making a grand old mistake, he outmaneuvered the Union Army to the extreme.
Speaker 2:Agreed. I mean, he was a phenomenal tactician and he understood things very well and he had the complete and total support of his troops I mean almost godlike to his troops Whereas in the North we had McClellan Right as Lincoln used to write McClellan. If you're not busy with the horses, can I borrow them?
Speaker 1:That sounds like Lincoln.
Speaker 2:Because McClellan. Basically, I will say this McClellan was phenomenal in training. He was phenomenal in drilling, phenomenal in education of warfare, but he was not a very, very effective general in leading them into battle and he always complained that he didn't have enough troops and didn't have enough supplies and didn't have enough horses and of course, he had three times what Lee had and basically sat on his duff for a lot of times. There was something else I wanted to mention about that whole thing at the time. There's something else I wanted to mention about that whole thing at the time. Lincoln really faces an awful lot of issues. First off, Congress is not in session and Fort Sumter is fired upon. Now, just to take a little step back from that, we have to remember something that Lincoln needed to do, and Lincoln was smart enough to realize he needed to do. He needed the South to fire first. He needed to have that situation.
Speaker 1:Sounds like Roosevelt and the Japanese yeah.
Speaker 2:Sounds like Roosevelt and the Japanese. Yeah, there's a fortunate incident that took place a few months earlier that is so rarely spoken of, and that was Buchanan hired a ship to provision Fort Sumter Right, it's called the Star of the North, the ship. And the ship went down to Fort Sumter and was fired upon by the batteries, damaging the ship. And the ship never got to the fort and it went back damaged and Congress went crazy like saying is this war? And if you read Harper's, as I said that's why I like to have these wonderful, wonderful books the governor of South Carolina states that if another ship is sent to provision the fort, south Carolina will look at that as an act of war. Now, everybody read that.
Speaker 2:Lincoln read that. So what does he do? He sends ships to the fort. Not only does he send the ships, but he also sends a direct telegraph message to the governor of South Carolina telling him he's sending ships. And what do they do? They fire. He gets his first shot and then they secede, right, well, they had already. They already seceded. This was April, april of 1861. And when was the amendment?
Speaker 1:When was the 13th Amendment, the original 13th Amendment? When was the Cohen Amendment? When was the 13th Amendment, the original 13th Amendment? When was the Cohen Amendment?
Speaker 2:That was in going from basically like January into April of 1861. That's why it had been approved by four states already. The last one was Illinois and it needed to prove it.
Speaker 2:The South didn't approve it either. Well, they never even. I don't even think they paid any attention to it. They were looking at it as a foolish measure. At this point the damage had been done already. It was sort of like you know, talking about saving the Titanic from an iceberg after hitting it. You know the damage had been done, and so the war starts and he has his first shot and he uses that as the North has been attacked. And then, of course, he puts in a call for troops, basically declares war without the approval of Congress, which is an interesting thing and of course the war begins and it doesn't begin well, and of course the war begins and it doesn't begin well.
Speaker 2:As we mentioned before, the North had all of the various industries. We had something called the fall line that doesn't get talked about too much. And what is the fall line? That is where the ground goes down and where lots of water runs down, and that's where you had lots of water, wheels running, industry and stuff. And that was in the north. It was right against the coast of the Atlantic, but in the south it's far further inland, which is one of the reasons why there was so much manufacturing in the area. Before you had steam power, you had, you know, water power, and the fall line was quite important.
Speaker 2:And so the war doesn't go too well for a long time and Lincoln's kind of terrified. And then he decides, as the war goes on, to put out the proclamation of emancipation, or the emancipation proclamation, and of course we could talk about this for quite a while, I'm sure because it's a fascinating document written by an extremely clever politician. Written by an extremely clever politician Because Lincoln was a master of doublespeak. He would make something that isn't much of anything sound absolutely fabulous and something that is something great and make it seem mediocre. He was so good at that.
Speaker 1:So one thing I always wondered, and maybe you have a viewpoint on that. I mean, like we've talked about before, the Emancipation Proclamation only frees the slaves in states in rebellion, right? So states that weren't in rebellion, all the states in the North that didn't free their slaves through executive order, Was there a thought in his mind that some states would come back into the union and not be in rebellion because in, so they could keep their slaves because in?
Speaker 2:so they could keep their slaves, that's. You know, it's an interesting thing with Lincoln and slavery. I mean, he went back and forth. He would say what needed to be said to whomever it needed to be said to. Sounds like a politician to me. Lincoln's a politician first. We always have to remember that. We often think of him as a statesman, but he was a politician first.
Speaker 2:That proclamation which was a war measure, by the way, and pushed, interestingly enough it has roots going all the way back to John Quincy Adams, which is really interesting. And the fascinating thing is that William Seward was a good friend of John Quincy Adams and basically supported Adams and was the biographer of Adams after his death. And Adams was very adamant on the fact that there would be a civil war. And he says when that time comes to free the slaves, you use the War Powers Act. And that's exactly what this is. You know, it's an interesting thing. I do believe that Seward had such a profound influence on Lincoln. And Lincoln was the great poet, you know. He could take something and write it beautifully and had amazing ideas. But I think Seward basically would hone things a little bit and say this is how you do it, Because he was a very great politician and he was one of the masters in the Senate.
Speaker 2:In the Senate and using John Quincy Adams' recommendation for the War Powers Act is a powerful and useful thing, because it basically says we will seize your property, and that means your guns, your equipment and your slaves. You call them property. We will confiscate it. And of course, that War Powers Act does not affect the North and nor does it affect the border states which had slaves. He didn't dare do that because he knew if he did it for the entire north, they would probably join the south, because they were fighting over something they weren't really fighting over slavery, they were fighting over union.
Speaker 2:And one of the interesting points of that proclamation is it was only in effect as long as the war was in effect. So if you think about it, by the time of the end of the war it's no longer in effect, which doesn't mean much at this point. But if you think about it, until the 13th Amendment, number two, comes out in December of 1865, slavery was basically legal again, Right, which is an interesting thing. And New Jersey was the last state to finally give up on slavery. Right, and New Jersey was the last state to finally give up on Slickford.
Speaker 1:Well, I think we had that conversation before the Mason-Dixon line, where the slavery line was at, and the bottom of New Jersey as well as bottom of the parts of Pennsylvania were below that line, and there's a famous law review article that says there were 18 registered slaves in southern Jersey at the time of the Civil War, amendment 13th 1865.
Speaker 2:Yeah, here's a fascinating booklet also as well. This is the census of 1860.
Speaker 1:Wow, and it's fascinating reading because it's basically the time of the Civil War and what's going on in various states and the thoughts that were going on in various states and whatever how they describe people, because I've seen those in the South how they describe these other persons, as you may say, and the names they use, and a lot of different ways of characterizing human beings, whether they were slaves or others.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's really kind of horrid. I mean it's awful, but the Civil War goes on, which we can kind of fly by, because if we start dissecting things we'll be talking until tomorrow and then some. Yeah, it's a fascinating, fascinating subject. This is something else I wanted to pull out just to show you. This is an individual, and once again it's a little hard to see, I guess, but this comes out in 1863. This is a congressman from Ohio, the Honorable CL Valendigham, quite a name, and he is totally against Lincoln's actions. He is for basically letting the South go, he is pro-union but he's also anti-civil war and Lincoln has him removed from the country.
Speaker 1:Now, that sounds like Lincoln.
Speaker 2:It's a very interesting story. And Valdeum is basically they send 180 troops to get him from his house and it's under the control of General Burnside and he's sent over to the south, but the south says we don't want him, and so then he's sent to Canada. He becomes a man without a country. An interesting thing.
Speaker 1:So when did and I don't know this, I'm sure you do when did Alexander de Tocqueville come to America and write his book? What was it On America? I mean, it had to be in the middle of the 18th century somewhere, whether it was the 1840s.
Speaker 2:What was it in the 1830s 1840s, I think?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it had to be around that period, and him being a French aristocrat, he was right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:How his views on slavery, I just don't remember. And I read a lot of the Tocqueville but I don't really remember.
Speaker 2:It's fascinating reading what he sees.
Speaker 1:On America. I can't remember the name of the book.
Speaker 2:I think, I think and I might be wrong here and I'm sorry, but I think it's somewhere in the 1840s, 1850s.
Speaker 1:He died like 1860 or something like that, so it had to be before that. Yes, sorry, I digress again.
Speaker 2:No, no, no.
Speaker 1:My limited knowledge of things.
Speaker 2:Oh no, you have a lot of knowledge. You know so much about this stuff, and the law of course, but this whole thing, by Val and Digum. This is a fascinating chapter in itself, and it would be fun to do a talk about him sometime.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm in. I'm always in, I never say no.
Speaker 2:Now, of course, these are things for me. I always liked, as I said, I like to look at contemporary writings and stuff, and I've got various issues of things like this. These are all, once again, unreadable. Let me open this toward the front. These are from the Department of State and these are all various messages and statements from the president from Seward to various countries. During the Civil War, Seward was Secretary of State, yes, A very powerful Secretary of State.
Speaker 1:And were they adversaries originally Seward Chase? Were they adversaries before Seward Chase? Were they adversaries before Lincoln really started? Indeed. They were all adversaries. I know Chase was right. He was from New York Seward. And there's a third person I can't think of who it was, Doesn't matter, I'm just thinking off the top of my head.
Speaker 2:Chase.
Speaker 1:Seward and the rest.
Speaker 2:And the rest. And the rest I can't think of either, but those I mean. Chase was really like he was so hot and heavy to become president.
Speaker 1:Lincoln did the smart thing and brought all his enemies in. You know he had the godfather thing Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as Harry S Truman said, I'd rather have him pissing in the tent instead of outside of the tent. Right. But Chase never let up on that presidential ambition and he was secretary of the treasury, Famous for a couple of things.
Speaker 2:First off, he's the fellow that puts in gods we trust on our coinage. That comes from him because he was a very pious man and he felt that that should be on the coinage and Lincoln was too busy dealing with the war and it's on the two-cent coin to begin with and eventually it works its coin to begin with and eventually it works its way to other coins and finally, in 1956, 57, on our paper money. It took a while. We trusted them with coins but we didn't trust them with paper.
Speaker 1:What about many as one? Are you planning to assume? When did that come on, do you know?
Speaker 2:I think that goes back to almost near the founding. I think, yeah, I would think.
Speaker 1:You know, with the national seal. Yeah, I mean when I said to you before, sometimes when I think of Lincoln, I think of Washington, because Washington was just so brilliant of of handling things and Washington also was extremely tall, especially in his era. Being tall was so unusual and he had a really tall horse, so he was larger than life. Um, he had a big horse and he was very tall. So when he spoke, scared the shit out of people is what he did. And I think Lincoln had that too. Only he spoke in like parables or something. Lincoln was a little bit told stories and when you walked away you were like was he talking about me, you know, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Lincoln was interesting in that way. But talking about Washington, there's another thing about Washington and it goes all the way back to the Roman era, but during the time of the declaration before he was in the Continental Congress but eventually left. But he had the biggest calves in Congress. The size of your calves was also a sign of your integrity and people would always display. If you notice so often you'll see the calf displayed in images.
Speaker 1:And the size of the calf meant everything.
Speaker 2:Washington's calves were enormous and he was just a big guy, you know. He was tall and kind of large and he stood out in the crowd and, to a degree, very much like Lincoln, he has gone through a pasteurization process where we've kind of removed but he had a little BT Barnum in him too.
Speaker 1:You know like he had his uniforms custom made, even though he wasn't the head of the Continental Army in general, and he used to wear them to the Continental Congress or whatever. When he wear them to the Continental Congress or whatever, when he I mean it was a little bit of like we talked about Edison in our other podcast a little PT Barnum Lincoln had it, Washington had it. It's that cult of personality is really what it is.
Speaker 2:Of course, washington was in Congress saying me I mean I got it.
Speaker 1:I have a horse already.
Speaker 2:You don't have to buy me a uniform. You know, and you know. The person that does nominate him, of course, is John Adams.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And, of course, washington becomes the star, much more than the star than Adams ever envisioned. So getting on with Lincoln. Lincoln, of course. Yeah, I can get sidetracked.
Speaker 1:I'll watch it real quick.
Speaker 2:It's easy to do because there's so many stories and there's so much fascinating stories about Lincoln, about every president actually. But in the Civil War, and by the time we get to Gettysburg which is to some people, and it's interesting you look at some historians and some historians say that the changing point of the Civil War was Gettysburg. Some say it wasn't, some say it was 1864. But I kind of think that Lee, who was not at all in good health, he had a heart attack I didn't realize that and also he was suffering from severe dysentery and also had a I forget, was it a displaced arm or something from falling off his horse. He was not in good shape.
Speaker 2:He rode to Gettysburg riding on a donkey. Okay, things had changed quite a bit. He was not riding on the horse because he had to stay low until he could get off, because he was not feeling well and he was constantly running to take care of dysentery. So he wasn't at 100% and you know, when we get to the point of Pickett's Charge, which it's questionable whether he was working on all cylinders there I mean that was just a destructive thing.
Speaker 2:And you really get that when you walk through Gettysburg and you walk to where that fence is. And I was very fortunate to be taken there by a phenomenal historian and they sat down and explained for three days. We did it, we did Gettysburg and it was a tour de force. It was fascinating for me. And he said that they reached that point where they were about 1,000 feet from the Union and they had all their cannon lined up and in those cannons were the mini ball canisters double charged, and then they fired and he said all you saw was smoking shoes. Just wipe them out. It's horrific. I mean it was an amazing thing. But the Civil War goes on and finally the Civil War ends more or less with Lee surrendering because they had nothing. Grant was the general and of course Grant was called the butcher. People at the time were calling him the butcher because he just kept throwing men at Lee. He just had an endless reserve.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:Total war.
Speaker 2:Yeah, total war, yeah, total war.
Speaker 1:It turned out, sherman said just burn it all down. I don't know what to tell you. As wide as you can make it, as far as you can go. When you get to the ocean, you can turn around, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's true, war is hell and that it was. He made it hell and that was total war and Lee eventually surrenders in Appomattox. And Lincoln visited the South Real quick. Went to the State House in Virginia. Went to the statehouse in Virginia, went to the president's desk Jefferson Davis' desk who had vanished and sat down, asked for a glass of water.
Speaker 1:That is the end of part one of our video on the Lincoln and his assassination. Be tuned to part two. If it's not already available, be available very shortly, in the next day or so. All right, thank you for listening and please like and subscribe.
