History's Agenda
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History's Agenda
Moving the Father of Our Country: Washington's Forgotten Tomb Story
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Death doesn't end a president's journey. In this riveting exploration of presidential afterlives, Jack Stanley reveals the surprising story of George Washington's remains and their dramatic relocation nearly four decades after his death.
Washington's body, originally interred in a deteriorating family tomb at Mount Vernon in 1799, faced unexpected perils. By 1830, tomb raiders had broken in, stealing human remains and forcing action on Washington's long-ignored will provision for a new resting place. What followed was extraordinary: when officials finally moved Washington in 1837, they discovered his remarkably preserved body inside a decaying coffin, creating a moment of intimate connection with America's founding father.
This forgotten chapter of history sparkles with fascinating details – from the Philadelphia craftsman who created Washington's marble sarcophagus at his own expense to the yellow liquid that seeped from the coffin during the transfer. Stanley weaves these elements into a larger tapestry of Washington's revolutionary legacy, exploring how this towering figure (literally, at 6'2") transformed warfare through necessity, establishing the guerrilla tactics that would ultimately secure American independence against overwhelming odds.
The conversation naturally expands to Washington's profound impact on American governance – particularly his pivotal decision to relinquish power, both as a general and as president. As King George III supposedly remarked upon hearing of Washington's military resignation: "If this is true, he is the greatest man who ever lived." This precedent of peaceful power transition fundamentally shaped American democracy and inspired revolutionary movements worldwide.
Listen as we uncover this macabre yet meaningful piece of presidential history, reflecting on how Washington's physical remains and his philosophical legacy continue to influence our understanding of leadership, democracy, and the delicate balance of power in our constitutional system.
Have you explored the hidden histories of other presidential remains? Share your thoughts and join us for upcoming roundtable discussions on presidential legacies throughout American history.
Hello everyone and welcome back to A Better Life, new York. I'm here with my good friend, jack Stanley, and we're back to talk about other presidential happenings, which has been a theme going on and on and on. I just want to thank you all for the great response we've had in our past podcasts. Jack and I have talked about it a little bit, but not totally. I mean, we have thousands of views on our JFK multi-part series and thousands of views on the Lincoln series, so we continue to talk about presidential happenings. This one goes back to please like and subscribe. I appreciate everyone's subscriptions. I mean we're somewhere at around 600 subscriptions, which is pretty impressive at this point, jack, these podcasts have brought in more and more subscriptions and I hope you all continue to watch and continue to subscribe. With that, I'll turn the floor over for the next topic to Jack. Okay.
Speaker 2:Good to see you. My pleasure is mine and I thought it would be kind of a fascinating thing to talk about. You know, lincoln had this amazing funeral and his body was moved and everything else, and that happened with several presidents which we don't really know about. But George Washington has a fascinating story about after his death and the movement of his body and I thought that would be kind of fascinating because that's the kind of history you don't usually hear. You usually hear about when he was standing upright. You don't usually have him when he's horizontal. And George Washington, of course, our first president, and he has been kind of interestingly described by various historians, some very well, some rather frightening. We had Parson Weems and Parson Weems, you know, came up with that wonderful story of George Washington with the cherry tree saying Father, I cannot tell a lie, which was totally bogus. He also came up with another story that, interestingly enough, has become dogma and that is praying at Valley Forge. He made up the story and that is praying at Valley Forge. He made up the story, but people think he actually did that.
Speaker 2:Chief Justice Marshall wrote a history, washington Irving wrote a history, and then we have Jared Sparks who wrote a history, and Jared Sparks is a very unfortunate historian in that regard with Washington. He was given the papers of Washington by Bushrod Washington, who was a justice of the Supreme Court and a nephew of George Washington, and also by Chief Justice Marshall. He had all the papers and he wrote a history of Washington with all of his documents. Now, jared Sparks, if he saw something that did not fit the image of Washington or that someone else wrote for Washington, he would destroy it. He would destroy it and that's a frightening and terrible thing. And George Washington's farewell address was written by Hamilton and Madison and so Jared Spark cut it up and sent various pieces to collectors, which is which is incredible.
Speaker 2:But nonetheless, george Washington has been kind of changed around quite a bit by a lot of historians and we really don't know too much about Washington in many respects. Martha burned all her letters and a lot of other stuff was destroyed, changed, and he's been made into a god and he was even a statue when he was alive. You know, it's a fascinating thing. There was a story about he would walk in to see his step-grandchildren and they would be playing on the floor and George would come in to look and enjoy and they would freeze up because it was George Washington.
Speaker 2:It's really an amazing thing that he had that kind of reputation so by the time that George Washington dies, on December the 14th 1799. And of course, harry Light Horse, harry Lee, I think he's the one that said you know, first in war, first in peace and first in the hearts of his countrymen. And of course that kind of summed up Washington. Washington was terrified when he was dying. He knew he was dying and he talked to his close associates and said keep me unburied for several days to make sure I'm truly dead.
Speaker 1:Interesting. He had gotten pneumonia right. He had been went out on his horse in bad weather. Is that the story?
Speaker 2:It's bizarre Actually. He got somewhat of a strep throat, his throat swelled up and basically blocked his breathing Right and he just slowly, frighteningly suffocated to death. Not to mention the fact also he was very weak because the doctors came and bled him and when he didn't get better they bled him more, and they did that repeatedly several times. So finally he passes away, is away. Then he is basically put outside in December and he kind of chills, as it were, and then he is placed in a mahogany coffin that is lead lined and that the lead is placed into the mahogany casket, or I should say coffin, because it's wedge-shaped. And then that was placed into an outer container that was fabric-covered with black fabric and that was taken into the old tomb at Mount Vernon. Now, this tomb at Mount Vernon was most probably built in the middle of the 18th century and it was falling apart, it leaked, it was problematic and Washington, in his will he stated we need a new tomb and he put monies aside to take care of that. Well, washington is entombed on the 18th of December 1799, and the the executor of his will was a major Lawrence Lewis, who takes care of a great deal of what goes on, but he'll have a part later on as well. So Washington is brought into this tomb, this mausoleum, which is crowded with a whole bunch of Washingtons and other members of the family Some over 20 coffins are in there. And then Martha passes away in 1802. And then a variety of individuals live at Mount Vernon, including Bushrod, washington.
Speaker 2:And by the time we get to the 1820s, into 1830, nobody has replaced the original tomb. And then someone broke into the tomb and broke into a casket trying to find, probably Washington, and they steal a skull and some bones and that individual is caught. But it raises alarms that this is not a good deal. We need to build a new tomb. And so, starting in 1830, a new tomb is started to be built. 1830, a new tomb is started to be built. Now, in 1831, 20 coffins are moved out of that old tomb. They leave George and Martha in the old tomb because they want to have new sarcophagus, sarcophagus made I can't say the word right now A new sarcophagus made for Washington and his wife Martha. So it's going to take a little while. Mr Lewis contacts, contacts a John Struthers in Philadelphia and asks him to build these new tombs, these new casket holders. He said, I'll tell you what? Let me design them and I'll make them appropriate, and I'll take care of it at my own cost, and that, eventually, is done and that eventually is done.
Speaker 1:I guess it's a good thing to be a presidential tomb maker, especially when that president's, george washington, right this is true, gives him a place in history.
Speaker 2:And so, uh, george, uh, john struthers is the fellow that makes these marble coffins and he brings them down to Mount Vernon in 1837. By this time the new tomb has long since been built, and he comes with a Mr Strickland, and he and Strickland arrive in October of 1837. And Mr Lewis, lawrence Lewis, as I mentioned, who was the executor, the living executor to Washington's, will, collectively, collectively, they go into the old tomb and they look for Washington and Martha and they of course find them. And they discover that the coffins are absolutely ruined. They're wet, they collapsed and the silver plate that was on the outside had fallen into the coffin. So they removed that outer coffin and bring the mahogany casket out, which is in pretty rough shape too, and also the lead is in pretty bad shape and it's broken in areas. So they pull it back and there is George Washington, and they describe it in a fascinating article that was put out by Harper's Magazine in March of 1859.
Speaker 2:They go through the whole thing of Mount Vernon as it is, and this takes place, as I said, in March of 1859. And at that point the Mount Vernon Ladies Association had just purchased the property and so they had no idea what's going to happen. So that's why the story is called Mount Vernon as it is, why the story is called Mount Vernon as it is. And so in there they talk about the fact that they pull back the lead and there, very well preserved, is George Washington without any kind of funeral clothes at all they can't find anything in that regard and no hair. And they said they placed a hand upon the brow and then slowly removed it and then pulled the lead over it and they said it looked very well preserved. But they said when they moved it this yellow liquid was pouring out of the back of the coffin.
Speaker 2:So they take that coffin and carry it over to the new marble receptacles and they spill some of the liquid from that. But they get it inside there and then cement it inside and then later not right away but within a short while they have a case ready for Martha and they bring her there. And they have been there since October, the 7th 1837. That is when George Washington enters his new tomb. But it's just kind of an interesting thing that Washington was in that old tomb in terrible situation. It was falling apart, it was wet, all the caskets were falling apart inside it and it's hardly a good place to put the father of our country in. And, of course, the new tomb is very well equipped, very well taken care of and to this very day, it looks identical to when it was first constructed, day it looks identical to when it was first constructed.
Speaker 2:So was there a dedication or anything at the time of the new tomb? I imagine kind of.
Speaker 2:I don't see anything about that about that the interesting thing is that Mr Strutland writes a book called the Tomb of Washington in 1840, which goes into minute detail of this whole process, minute detail of this whole process. And in this book which I have here, which is 1845, it goes through the whole section that's in the tomb of Washington on his burial, which is quite fascinating as well, and even so much as the design for the sarcophagus and a couple of other things. To mention to you that Strickland entered the old tomb with Major Lewis, who was the last survivor from the original burial of Washington, and he knew exactly where everything was and he was very much involved with and it was his suggestion to pull back the lead to take a look and see how George was faring. They did not do that with Monta, it was only done with George and that's pretty much the story.
Speaker 2:It's a great story, not too complex, not too lengthy, but we've had several presidents, you know, who have been moved. Right, you know George Washington. Of course John Adams was moved. James Madison was actually looked at 20 years after he was buried. John Quincy Adams was looked at four years after he died. It's kind of an interesting and kind of macabre thing. And of course poor Abraham Lincoln was looked at so many times. I mean it was ridiculous, but I thought it would be interesting just to share this little piece of history, this short little piece about Washington and his removal from his original tomb to the new one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, washington was so to himself. It's not surprising to me, because Washington, after he left the presidency, was so to himself. You know, he didn't really want to be referred to. He didn't want to be asked about what was going on. He walked away, much like he walked away being general. You know he walked away much like he walked away being general. You know, he, he walked away. He never wanted to be president, even though his generals wanted him to be king, um, so to speak, um but. And that long tradition of walking away at the height of a power, whether it's a general or whether it's a president, starts with Washington.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know, it's an interesting fact that when he resigned his commission from the military and he was the most powerful individual in the country he could have done anything he wanted and he became the American Cincinnatus. He went back to his plow, as it were, and upon hearing that, king George III said if this is true, he is the greatest man who ever lived. Basically saying something along the lines of that. And everyone was amazed.
Speaker 2:You know someone with that much power was willing to give it up it is amazing and it and it's a long tradition.
Speaker 1:It's been upset from time to time, obviously, but um, generals do become president, as we've seen with eisenhower though he didn't want it either, he was pretty much done. He gets talked into it by a bunch of others and it's just incredibly interesting that this long tradition of walking away at the height of your power that demonstrates the power really resides with the democracy and with the people. They ultimately decide. Sure.
Speaker 2:The interesting thing about Washington, of course you know he only wanted to serve one term actually, and he was pushed and pushed by Hamilton and, to a lighter degree, madison, and so he did it and then the second time he said that's it.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm not doing this anymore. And at that point he was getting, he was actually there was protests around the presidential mansion at that time, you know, because all the activity that was going on in France, because we declared ourselves neutral and they didn't like that and they didn't like that, and finally John Adams becomes president, winning by three votes, which everyone wanted to tell him that. And when they finished, washington looked at it and he said you are fairly in and I am fairly out. Which of us will be the happiest? And of course it was George. He went back home, but then after a while he kind of got tired because he wasn't getting any information and you know, obviously being so powerful, obviously being the center of everything, and then suddenly the center of nothing, was a paradigm shift for him and unfortunately he didn't live that long and he was dead just two years after retiring this beginning of a two-party system in a way.
Speaker 1:Though I never saw Washington really on the Hamilton side, even though he was to some extent, he seemed to walk a little bit different of a line. No one dared question him, even though Jefferson was in his face about all kinds of different things. Uh, this, uh, gentleman farmer, if you will and I use that term loosely, uh in today's words um, but it was very interesting that he walked away. I mean, it really is and it really needs to be remembered. Um, I think there were two places he gave his farewell speech. One is the general. Did that take place?
Speaker 1:if you know, I always thought it took place in newberg um where I believe it did yeah and then the, the famous story as it goes and I've been up there to the spot and where he takes out, where, you know, men in those days did not like to show weakness, especially as a general. And while he's giving his farewell speech to his generals and telling them I'm not doing it, we're not being a king, I'm walking away from power, he reaches into his pocket and pulls out his spectacles and puts them on to show that he is a weakened man from this experience or from what it is, and I'm sure you have a story to it.
Speaker 2:He used a great line there because they were really upset because they weren't getting paid and stuff like that Correct. And then when he did grab the spectacles and put it on, he said not only have I turned gray in the service of my country, I have gone blind, and the soldiers all around him wearing tears. I mean, washington was a good showman, he was good at what he did, he understood, he had that. Look, he was a big guy, you, he was like six foot two and a half, you know, and big and on a big horse. Yeah, yeah, and he commanded attention.
Speaker 2:He didn't command attention by speaking, usually he just stood there. You know, when he was the president of the Constitutional Convention, he didn't talk much, but his presence said volumes and that's the important thing. The presence of Washington having him as the first president was so vitally important because the office was created with him in mind, right, and so it's amazing I mean, he is a fascinating character so often misrepresented and not talked about correctly by lots of people, especially if we go back in time with some of these histories. Parson Williams he didn't know much about anything, so he just made it up, you know, and then he did a couple of others on Benjamin Franklin and Napoleon Right.
Speaker 1:Well, another thing about Washington is even though, like you said, he was a showman, we know that when he ran from the British and wherever it is Kipps Bay and where the British really had them against, and they escape on row boats to the bottom of uh, to the lower part of Manhattan and run like the wind up Broadway up to White Plains and then working their way across. And there were some battles in between. But you know, in those days war was fought in the day, in front of everybody. It wasn't this guerrilla thing that some Americans learned from the Indians, especially the Green Mountain Boys, right.
Speaker 2:You know, you remind me of something here. If I may throw it in real quick, sure, that is that you're talking about that escape from Brooklyn. Correct, this is the American Revolution's Nuremberg, if you think about it. First off, they're trapped, they can't get out, and the only way out is taking these boats across the East River. Now, the problem is that they can't do it fast enough and there's tons of British ships all around. The current and the wind is going the wrong way. The current and the wind is going the wrong way, so the boats can't go up At the same time there's an amazing fog that comes in and they're able to escape by these two Incredible.
Speaker 2:I mean, if you actually sat there and said this is what's going to happen in the story they're trying to get away, they're doing the things, the wind blows the wrong way, they can't go, and then a big fog comes in and you'd say this is ridiculous.
Speaker 1:But that's exactly what happened as soon as they get across the fog lifts but you know, as the British awake in the morning and think they have them trapped and they're going to be a surrender and the war is over, they look down, they're gone and the story goes, whether it's, whether it's true or not, is that washington waited until the last boat so that when the british were looking down, they saw him like see you later, guys. And that's another demonstration of Washington's showmanship.
Speaker 2:Well, he was known as the Fox that's what the British used to refer to him, you know, as the Fox Hunt, you know, and the Fox was always getting away. And one of the people I've studied a great deal and whose books I have in my library, which I should talk about one of these days, was William Stephen Smith. And he's on that last boat with Washington and that's where they basically bond and he becomes a very close associate of Washington and eventually one of his aid to camps. It's a fascinating story about that fella.
Speaker 1:One more thing oh sure, go ahead. So the other story I always think about Washington is when he's in Valley Forge and the wheels have come off the bus even though there weren't any buses in those days but everybody's not going to reenlist. They don't have shoes, they're freezing to death, they don't have food, they haven't gotten anything, and Washington comes up with this idea to attack, whether it's Trenton or Princeton, before everybody runs out on New Year's Eve.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's actually Valley Forge is. After that. That's actually when their escape from New York and they work their way up New Jersey, right. That is when they attack the Hessians on Christmas and it's so important because they were ready. They were almost wiped out. I mean there was something like in the neighborhood of like somewhere between three to 5,000 troops total in Washington's army. The British had 30,000 troops in Washington Excuse me in New York City, and I mean it's incredible that they kept running away.
Speaker 2:Washington learned something very, very important and that is not to have battles but have skirmishes, basically guerrilla warfare. It's the only way they can survive. They can't. How do you have 3,000 men that are capable and several of them couldn't even do anything, and some of them just had spears and sticks and whatever. You couldn't even do anything, and some of them just had spears and sticks and whatever? You can't fight like that. You have to basically use the advantage of surprise, and that is how Washington never fights a major battle Again. If you think about it after Brooklyn, it's all skirmishes and it's basically running away and attacking when they can. And this is important because you know something it wasn't a matter of winning a war, it was a matter of surviving. It was a matter of surviving, and that's the whole idea of the American Revolution. We needed to basically get the British hired and just lose interest.
Speaker 1:We didn't really understand this until Vietnam, if you think about it. Sun Tzu, the Art of War. Somebody should have read it, yeah. But, it's been interesting, that's what they did.
Speaker 2:They waited for us to lose interest, and then they basically won, just like we did.
Speaker 1:Well, you know the English had other issues too. They're worried about their plantations and things in the Caribbean, so they didn't want to commit their entire Navy, worried about the French who actually had a Navy, not like what we had, which was was basically a few ships. But what I found and I've been to all the places in New Jersey, you know the encampments at Marstown and been through Monmouth and everything what I found most surprising was the most revolutionary thing about the Revolutionary War is how Washington changed how war was fought in the Western world completely.
Speaker 2:He had to. It was basically a necessity. And there's one important thing that we often don't talk about, and that is we wouldn't have won the war if it hadn't been for the French, because basically Washington was trapped in Brooklyn and he escaped, and then he was in Manhattan, which was he was surrounded by ships. Fortunately he could get out. And if you think, at the end of the war, cornwallis what is surrounding Cornwallis on a peninsula? The French Navy, so they can't get out. And who's cutting them off? At the other end, the French military followed right next to George Washington's military and so basically, they have to surrender, they get caught in a way that Washington didn't get caught, but if you think about it, by all reasonings they should have been caught.
Speaker 2:It was the most bizarre circumstances. If you just think about that. You know we call it the miracle at Nuremberg, but it was really. If you go back to the revolution, it's, it's, it's uh, excuse me, I said miracle at Nuremberg, at Dunkirk, excuse me. Um, the same thing is for Brooklyn. It, it was, it's, it's, it's absolutely unbelievable. There were so many times we should not have won.
Speaker 1:We should have been destroyed right away. Well, think about how the whole thing started. A bunch of farmers with guns standing in a field so far away from Boston you wouldn't walk there today. They walked an entire army all the way there, shot back and forth and then decided to walk back and they just played, pick them off, using all the tactics they learned from the Indians, and just hid behind trees and picked them off, one at a time. It was brutal.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, the British didn't know what to do. It was totally ungentlemanly, absolutely, they were fighting. You know, it's remarkable If you look at war. At that time they'd basically come out with the band and each side would come out and they'd'd line up and then they would shoot at each other and then these vagrants were hiding behind trees. And then, of course, one of the great things that saves Washington it's kind of a fun thing and it's almost a joke, and people were trying to say it didn't happen, but it did. Mrs Murray in New York City had some lovely daughters and so she invited the British officers over for cake and tea and she knew very well that Washington was trying to get out. So she kept them occupied and her daughters smiled and cheered on the British officers and by the time they were done, washington was all the way up where Columbia University is now and they were able to get out.
Speaker 1:Well, washington seemed to have a network of women, right, I mean, there were spies, there were this, he had all kinds of things. That went on More than we know and more we'll ever know the factors of, but I'm sure he had his.
Speaker 1:I've heard that from Betsy Ross yeah, yeah, I mean, mean, think about it, most matter what, five, seven, five, eight, during this time, this guy's six, two, yeah, and he's colossal has a presence beyond words. What do you think happened, especially especially in those days when he walked into the room, like you said, when he walked into a tavern, when he walked into places, when he walked into someone's home and asked a woman and her family to help them. I mean, it must have been unbelievable.
Speaker 2:He was basically a monumental individual. As I said, he was basically a monumental individual. As I said, he was somewhat of a statue. You know, the last 20 years of his life people just kind of looked at him in awe. I mean, it's hard for us to even understand this today.
Speaker 1:And there are some interesting facts, like he always wanted to be a British general I mean, that's what it was and he always wanted to be that before he wanted. And then they give him this job to deal with the Indians right in Ohio or whatever.
Speaker 2:He single-handedly gets his entire.
Speaker 1:So when he gets hired to be the general, he single-handedly got all of his men killed and started the French and Indian War. And this is the guy they pick to be the father of our country.
Speaker 2:I remember he came to the Continental Congress dressed in uniform. Every day, as I said, there's a bit of showmanship in Washington.
Speaker 2:I mean, he's sitting there saying, hot damn, I want to be in charge. And John Adams is very, very astute. John Adams was a very emotional, could be a kind of cranky individual, but he was brilliant and he understood that the revolution wasn't going to work unless you had some Virginians involved, and this is why he nominates Washington in 1775. Otherwise it's going to be a New England affair. It's the most brilliant thing that Adams does. And then, of course, he encourages Richard, henry Lee, along with Franklin and a few others, to go down and get some basically acceptance for a break from Virginia, basically saying a break from the mother country. And then, of course, he nominates Thomas Jefferson to write the Declaration of Independence, an act which he regretted the rest of his life.
Speaker 1:I guess that's a good place. There are so many stories and this thing we went over very, very this time we went on, just happened to fall into after we talked about his body being stolen Certainly off to a different direction. Yeah, there's so much with the.
Speaker 2:American Revolution. It's an amazing. It's sort of like the mouse that roared. If you think about it, and to our benefit, we have to once again. You know, france bankrupted itself supporting us for the American Revolution and this leads to the whole collapse for the American Revolution and this leads to the whole collapse of the monarchy.
Speaker 1:It leads to the collapse of colonialism all over the world. It's the shot heard around the world as they say right In the beginning. I mean it begins in Lexington and Concord and ends in 1945, or whatever it is in India right, or 45, 47.
Speaker 2:You know, you could say that's where it all ends. You know, it was once said and I forget who said this a well-known historian, a well-known historian. And they said the high watermark of the what's the word I'm thinking of? Oh, isn't that awful when you can't think of the term. Let's just basically say one of the high watermarks of intellectual prowess after the development and change of society was the Declaration of Independence. You know, it's incredible how it totally, totally changed the world and its effect has been felt all over the world. Abraham Lincoln used it constantly during the American Civil War. Many countries have based their constitutions or their basic premise of government on our basic ideals which go back to John Locke a lot, ideals which go back to John Locke a lot. But if you think about that, that whole change in understanding, basically it's high water mark is definitely the declaration.
Speaker 1:But of course Locke said things a little differently. That happened to get changed by a man from the South, like you know, life, liberty and freedom of the state, which means everybody gets to own property. But since in the world that Jefferson lived only white males owned property and he had slaves, so we can't give him that right.
Speaker 2:So he changed it to pursuit of happiness. Yes, uh, yes, did I have my issues with jefferson, but uh he, he was an excellent writer definitely what's.
Speaker 1:What's the opening statement in um in Burns documentary, where he goes he was an enigma wrapped in a paradox or a paradox wrapped in an enigma. And you know the historian and I can't think of his name. A brilliant historian, he's passed away. He's written some great books on the Civil War. A brilliant historian, he's passed away. He's written some great books on the Civil War and they said that he tells a story of how a man's in a bar or they're in a tavern you know where you stay the night and he's talking to a guy who doesn't know who he is. And they're talking about religion. He thinks he's a preacher. He's talking about um, about you know, the rights of man. He thinks he's a politician. He talks about I forget what other your third subject is. And the next day the guy's gone and he says to the barkeep who was that? And he says what are you? You don't know. That was Thomas Jefferson. He knew everything about everything, and you could argue that he never finished anything in his life either. Certainly his house wasn't finished.
Speaker 2:And it just entered my mind and I wish I could have thought of it before the high watermark of the Enlightenment. I could not think of the word, it just kind of went somewhere else. But the high watermark of the Enlightenment is indeed the Declaration of Independence and it changed everything. So we've kind of taken a roundabout trip. We left the tomb and went through the war and talked about several other things, and that's always a fun thing to do. You know, there's so many different avenues to follow and I think one of the best ways to put it is the way Thomas Edison used to say. He used to say when I invent, I start here with the intent to go here, but when I get to here, I discover something here. Therefore, he never gets there, but he goes to someplace totally different. And that's exactly what we did. We just kind of took a slight turn on conversation, and that makes it more fun.
Speaker 1:The unfinished pyramid on the back of the dollar bill. Right, it's meant to be unfinished. That it's never finished that we're constantly learning and figuring out who we are as Americans and defining what freedom is and what it should be.
Speaker 2:There's something that can never, ever quite, totally be defined. There's always a new definition of it if you think about it over time. What is freedom? What is our democratic republic? What is our constitutional republic? Or some people are just calling it democracy, which it isn't, but uh, well it's.
Speaker 1:It's funny, my, I don't know where I got this from, but I was telling my constitutional law professor and and in law school that it was always meant to be a Newtonian model, and he was like what I was like? Well, it's kind of like gravity Every once in a while the sun's gravity is stronger and it moves the earth one way. Then the earth's gravity pulls on the moon, it moves it to the mother, and so you have these three bodies that are constantly in structure, and that Newtonian model was used to say the executive branch, the judicial branch and the legislative branch, and every once in a while one part becomes more powerful than the other, but one day the others pull it back to the middle and where it is. Yeah, that's very true.
Speaker 2:Very good.
Speaker 1:And then I don't know where I heard this from, but I learned it from somewhere, and it became a whole classroom discussion about the Newtonian model and I said well, what's really interesting is I know we think it's gravity that's holding it all together. But whoever told me this told me that the real thought what was holding those three bodies together was God, and I'm sure it was a very old understanding of what that is. But in some aspects gravity is a force we don't understand one iota of.
Speaker 2:We don't. We don't understand magnetism, gravity and electricity. We know what they are. We don't know why. They are Kind of fascinating stuff, oh well.
Speaker 1:So I think we got to stop there. That's way out of our wheelhouse for a conversation.
Speaker 2:So anyway, for another time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for another time. I thank you very much. Please, everybody like and subscribe. We have a whole bunch of shows and I'm going to do a little blurb show about all the things I have coming up. And I'm going to do a little blurb show about all the things I have coming up. Other researchers we're also looking to do a roundtable with I know that if you listen to the podcast for a long time back when it was audio, with Dom and I did a JFK, we're going to do a roundtable with me, jack and Dom, and start talking about conversations, about things we've discovered in our research and try to learn more from each other. So, on that note, thank you all for listening, thank you all for watching and please like and subscribe. Thanks, jack as always.
Speaker 1:Bye.
