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History's Agenda
Exploring recent and historic events that have defined America, this podcast is perfect for understanding the foundations of American culture. Have you always wondered about the events that led to the deaths of JFK or the story of Son of Sam? What about the full story behind the Founding Fathers? Each episode of History's Agenda provides detailed storytelling of these issues and many others. This is an ideal podcast for fact-hungry listeners.
History's Agenda
JFK Part 4 - RoundTable Discussion with Jack and Dom. | Dec 11, 2025
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The autopsy reads like a military operation. The brain goes missing. From the first minutes on the tarmac to the last page of the Warren Commission, the JFK story is stitched with contradictions that refuse to die. We brought our roundtable back together to follow the hard edges: the casket swap accounts from Bethesda, morgue staff who recall a body bag and pre-autopsy surgery, and the chain-of-evidence gaps around the so‑called magic bullet. If a first-year defense attorney could dismantle the case, why did the nation accept it?
We dig into the operational backdrop most people never see: JM/WAVE’s web of CIA officers, anti-Castro exiles, and mob figures forged in the struggle against Castro; Operation Northwoods, which proved false flags were not fantasy but policy; and the rush to paint Oswald as a Cuban- and Soviet-linked agent via New Orleans leafleting, Mexico City legends, and convenient IDs. We weigh Lyndon Johnson’s choices—why the Cuba blame was abandoned, how Vietnam escalated immediately, and what his behavior in Dealey Plaza and on Air Force One might tell us. Along the way, names like E. Howard Hunt and Curtis LeMay surface, tying Dallas to a broader culture of covert power and political pressure.
This isn’t a hunt for every shooter. It’s a search for the employers—the coalition with the reach to manage an autopsy, redirect the press, and outlast oversight. We revisit Parkland doctors’ accounts of the head wound, explore the “Prayer Man” doorway footage that could upend the sixth-floor narrative, and confront the witness attrition that shadows the case. If you care about the integrity of evidence, the architecture of cover stories, and how national security can bend truth, you’ll want to hear this unvarnished exchange.
If this conversation moves you, follow the show, share it with a friend who still has questions about Dallas, and leave a review telling us what piece of evidence you think matters most. Your take might guide our next deep dive.
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to a new episode of A Better Life New York. I am here today with my usual cast of characters, so to speak, is uh Jack Stanley, who you know we did a multi-part, a lot of multi-part things, but a multi-part episode on JFK. And if you go back to our audio only days, you could go back and Dom and I had that original part with Dom and I. We kind of went through everything. We went through the timeline, we went through everything. And Jack and I went through, you know, his knowledge and the people he've met. And it kind of came up, I guess Dom brought it to me and said, you know, maybe we should do a round table. We could talk about some of the things that I've gotten feedback on, and they they've they've gotten feedback on, thought about some things, you know, we may have we may have not said absolutely correct. If there is a correct to no, or or should I say it's just a guess kind of thing. So here we are. The biggest feedback that I got at length by people, they would write me multi-page. First of all, it's amazing how a touch point the JFK assassination is. Everybody has a version, everybody has a view, everybody has something to say about it. It's become interwoven in our political and personal lives since 1963. The biggest feedback that I received was about the casket, where the body was coming off the plane, where who brought what on the plane, whether it was a plane casket, whether it was uh uh whether it was in the casket, and whether it was another body in there, you know, even people bringing up that they thought, you know, the the police officer that was killed Tibbs was in that in one of the caskets. We've heard it all. So if anyone wants to, you know, start on that topic, please go right ahead.
SPEAKER_02:I'll defer to Jack. I basically went through the whole thing, is the the the fact is the evidence is pretty strong. I mean, first off you have the the fancy casket that was taken to Parkland Hospital in which his body was put in and wrapped in a towel. And that was very, very important how it was done. Now, of course, then the casket's taken to Air Force One. What happens during this time is very, very questionable. It wasn't very well monitored. I mean, the casket is taken into the plane, yes, but the movement of the casket, the argument, the fighting with the Secret Service, with the medical examiner, all kinds of stuff's going on. Somehow the body ends up in the shipping casket in a body bag. And this has been recognized by various individuals who were working in the morgue. I mean, it's not a question of every one of them identifies the exact same thing. Right. And then the casket comes in a separate vehicle and then it is brought to another area, and then the body is taken out of the shipping casket, and then i it it's very confusing. It's nobody bothered to really document everything. Nothing was carefully watched, nothing was carefully taken care of, and that's probably very deliberate because as we'll probably in our discussions talk about the fact that this was a military action. It was not an autopsy, it was carefully controlled by the military. The doctors were told what to do, how to do it, and when to do it. And so the end result is that we have we have a myriad of questions that were created by the fact that there was nothing done to preserve the basic uh the body itself. I mean, the body was not protected, it was not documented. Nothing was done.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the the the uh researcher who brought all this to light was David Lifton in his 1980 book, Best Evidence. And as you said, he you could watch the videos of his interviews with the people who received the shipping casket. And what was also unusual was about 20, 25 minutes after the shipping casket came in, that's when Jackie and Bobby Kennedy show up with the other casket. So what David Lifton also found was a document written by the two FBI agents who remained with the body. And the documents talk about surgery to the head area. So it seems that prior to the autopsy that was viewed by 30 or so people, including Curtis LeMay, uh some surgery was done on JFK prior to that, more than likely to remove projectiles that would show being shot from different angles and whatnot.
SPEAKER_02:I agree. I agree 100% with you is the fact that before that other casket even comes there, they are by themselves the two surgeons, and they do their work. There was one fellow that was interviewed, and he said he even looked at the brain, and he said he could see that there was surgical work done on the brain.
SPEAKER_00:What what remained of it?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, what remained of it, a whole section was gone.
SPEAKER_00:You know, most of it was left in Dealy Plaza. Yeah. Yes. What's unusual is that the autopsy states that JFK's brain was larger than normal, but everybody every doctor who saw him said it was gone. Half of it was gone.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Agreed. So, Tom, if he could bring that microphone a little closer to you, I think it would be a good idea. Um, or move closer to it.
SPEAKER_00:How's that good?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So that brings up something I think if I remember Jack brought up is that he always thought that Robert went and took the brain from and put it with the body. Isn't that what you thought, Jack? No.
unknown:No.
SPEAKER_01:Is that what you thought, Don? Where did I hear that? Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_02:I knew it was one of you bright guys. I I don't think at I don't think that the brain was ever brought near the body. I think the brain, the slides, the pictures, anything that could identify or show any of the medications that JFK was on was put into that sh casket that was dropped in the North Atlantic.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I truly believe that that stuff was all in there because there would be, and according to the the head of Arlington Cemetery, there was nothing put into the tomb with JFK. He's no longer buried, he's entombed now. And there's nothing to it.
SPEAKER_00:Which there was a re-entombment in 1967.
SPEAKER_02:1967, yes. There was he's not buried, he's entombed.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, people said though that there was a that Robert Kennedy was given a box, a metal box, on the box that said gross material. And people said that there was a box placed in with JFK when he was uh you know reinterred in 67, which was done at night. I think I actually think Linda Johnson was there, and Bobby and Ted were there. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Yeah. The thing that really bothers me about the brain is the fact that it's removed and people that looked at the brain at the autopsy said it smelled of formaldehyde. Which didn't make any sense whatsoever. But the original brain that's missing, if it if it was exactly the original brain that was in that container, it was never sliced. It was never examined, which if you use something like that in a court of law, your case is gone.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean the the chain of evidence Overstone did a special on uh on the Kennedy assassination, a four-part thing, and he just destroys uh the chain of evidence for the uh magic bullet as well.
SPEAKER_02:So Cyril Wick did a fantastic thing on that.
SPEAKER_04:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. So you know, you have the bullet showing up before anybody signs for it. It's just crazy. It would have never a first-year lawsuit could have destroyed the case.
SPEAKER_02:Agreed. And I've never seen such sloppy assassins. I mean, how many assassins are going to keep dropping bullet casings everywhere? I mean, by Tippett, you know, at the six foot. I'm sorry. That that's ridiculous. It's it's it's just so it's it's too pedestrian for any kind of common sense.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Yeah. Tippett, I mean, the the best eyewitness said that there was two people around Tippett when he was shot. And what was fascinating was that this Dallas uh sheriff shows up and he has a wallet. He finds Oswald's wallet there, which then somehow disappears, but in the wallet it has the ID for uh Alex J. Heidel. Yeah. You know. So it's uh everything seemed to be a setup that day.
SPEAKER_02:Of course. I don't even think Oswald fired a shot, tell you the truth. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00:No, he no. I I actually I think that that's provable by the paraffin test.
SPEAKER_02:He failed the paraffin test.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Right. What happened was he tested positive for his hands but negative for his cheek. So some of the material they say that he was working with that day at the school book depository could have created a false positive for his hands. But there's no way that you could possibly operate a bolt action rifle fire three times without getting thing anything on your cheek.
SPEAKER_02:That that's so obvious. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, and if somebody says, well, he went home and he washed himself, okay. Well then why did he fail? Why why did he pass the paraffin on his hands then? Trevor Burrus, Jr. Besides you can't get rid of that right away.
SPEAKER_02:It takes a while. Right. Right. Trevor Burrus, Jr. And also the funeral director, which I'm sure you're very aware of, they didn't have any fingerprints or anything, and so they they basically until it went back to Washington.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. They sent the rifle to Washington, and the best FBI guy couldn't find any prints. They brought brought it back to Dallas, and as you said, the funeral director was aggravated because it took him a long time to get this ink off of Oswald's hands. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's a fascinating thing. The whole thing about this assassination is is is just so pathetic. The the Warren Commission. Which which I think, as I always say, should be next to Mother Goose and anything else, because it is it is pure unadulterated fiction. And it doesn't even have an index. Right. I mean, think about it. Twenty-six volumes with no index. There's a wonderful book that was written.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Silver Amiga. Yes. I was just going to say a housewife did the index.
SPEAKER_02:She sat and did the whole index to the Warring Commission because the government for some reason couldn't do it. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Well, they didn't want you looking back at it, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Plus they were making it up as they go along, so it's pretty hard to have an index to get things to correlate when nothing correlated. Well.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Well, you know, I mean, they they settled on before the assassination, they settled that it was going to be a lone nut and they just had to focus that way. And that was it. I mean, you know, look at the Secret Service performance that day. I mean, JFK is still alive and they're cleaning up the car. You know, that's a crime scene. They just they committed a crime by cleaning up the car.
SPEAKER_02:You know, it's it's frightening what was done. It's it's embarrassingly stupid what was done, and it's embarrassing that nobody brought it up.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you know, I think it was a timing issue. 1963, people still believed in the government. This was actually the first thing that started people not to believe in the government. Sure. And so I I think that's why. But uh when uh um you know the the book started coming out in the 60s and Garrison's investigation, you know, public opinion quickly turned.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, agreed. It it boggles the mind when I think about everything that happened, what I remember seeing at the time being said, the curtain rods. I still remember that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was carrying the curtain rods. I still remember as a kid hearing that, and I'm saying, yeah, wow, and I believed it, of course. Why would I not? Yeah. Right. I I had I was in school at the time and I had done a report on President Kennedy because he had become pretty hot tomato because of the Cuban Missile Crisis, as well as we knew at the time. And so I did a report on President Kennedy, and so I was really very, very immersed in him, and then suddenly, you know, all my focus on him, and then he was shot. Killed. It was pretty traumatic for a kid. Do you believe that Lyndon Johnson was involved? No. I think that Lyndon Johnson was blackmailable. He could easily be blackmailed. And I think that he found out about it. And I think he was politically savvy enough to understand what had happened, and totally knew what had happened, but knew to keep his mouth shut.
SPEAKER_00:See, I I I think that he knew pro had prior knowledge.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, me too.
SPEAKER_00:And the the the reason is is if you believe, you know, as the House Assassinations Committee in their report in 79 said that JFK was killed as as a result of conspiracy. If you start from that premise, whoever killed them, you know, fill it in, mob, CIA, whoever, Cubans, you're not gonna do something like that, in my opinion, unless you talk to Johnson first, because the last thing you could have is a legitimate investigation, because then you're gonna be found out and executed. And what the other thing is there seemed to have been a major effort to set up Oswald that he was working with Cuba. You know, in the sub you know, the summer of 63, he's out in New Orleans, he sets up the Fair Play for Cuba committee. Uh unfortunately for him, he puts the address on one of his leaflets, and it's 544 Camp Street, which is the office of Guy Bannister, who former uh special agent in charge of the Chicago FBI. Uh in 1961 and 62, the Cuban Revolutionary Council was also had an office there. So it was, you know, it was an intelligence operation being run out of there. But, you know, then he has the fight with the DRE representative in New Orleans, Carlos Berenger. And a lot of that's theater. 100%. Yeah. Absolutely orchestrated, in my opinion, without question. And when when they did a study on who printed the leaflets, it was a CIA outfit that printed out. Yeah. So my belief is that the assassination stemmed from operations at JM Wave Station, which was uh you know outside of Miami. And at that time in history, it was been proven that you had the mob, the CIA, and the anti-Castro Cubans working together to try to kill Bidel. Who's that?
SPEAKER_02:Mongoose, right? Operation Mongoose.
SPEAKER_00:Operation Mongoos, right. So I think what happened was they switched targets. Three of those groups had very serious issues with JFK. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So so they said, let's kill him, blame Castro for it, and then we could have a war where we depose Castro, the mob gets back their casino, the anti-Castro Cubans get back their country, and the CIA gets you know what they wanted, which was uh removal Fidel. I think that they somebody spoke to Lyndon Johnson about that, and he kind of played them off and went along with it, but he pulled the route rug out from under them and did not go for the Cuban angle. And I think that that's why we had this ridiculous stuff going on that it was uh, you know, one guy doing the shooting, and you have the Secret Service because the Secret Service was involved in this because they changed the motorcade route. They broke their own rules. And like I said, they they broke a they broke two laws that day because uh number one, they destroyed the crime scene by cleaning up the car. Right. Number two, they uh stole the body. Because at that time in history it was not a federal crime to kill the president. So he he should have remained in Dallas for the autopsy. Right. So the other thing that happened was uh National Security Action Memorandum 263 that JFK did in early December, where we would have been out of Vietnam 1965. That was changed literally the day he was buried. So I think that. That they had planned to uh kill Kennedy, blame it on Castro. I think that what happened was Johnson looked at that as a very, very dangerous situation because if we would have gone to war with Cuba, we're definitely going to be killing Russians, and you don't know where that can lead. Johnson wanted to be president more than anything in the world, but he, you know, he might have only been president for a week. You know what I mean? So I I think that another reason why I believe he knew is that would explain his behavior in Dealy Plaza. He was ducking. Okay. We have two sources for that. Senator Ralph Yarborough's testimony, right, where he said that when the limousine entered Dealy Plaza, Lyndon Johnson was leaning over listening to some radio. And we also have photographic evidence proving that because you have a picture of the limo, you see Ladybird and you see Ralph Yarborough, but you don't see Lyndon Johnson. Yeah, he's down.
SPEAKER_02:I truly believe that he was understanding what was going on, but he was not the person planning it. He I agree with that. I agree, but did not want to be initially at all. Yeah, he didn't initiate a Hoover of the FBI. I don't think either one of them were involved in planning it. I believe the joint chiefs. I believe the joint chiefs of staff working with rogue elements of the CIA, and I think one of the more important people is Alan Dulles.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:That is the devil incarnate, as far as I'm concerned. And Kennedy fired him, but that didn't mean anything. I mean, he was running the CIA from home. Yeah. And basically, I think that that that he, along with the Joint Chiefs, and probably a few other individuals, I don't think the mob was involved initially in the assassination. I think they were involved in the cleanup.
SPEAKER_00:Well, Jack Ruby was a mob guy out of Chicago. Yeah. And there's a book called Contract on America by David Scheim, where he goes over Ruby's telephone calls prior to the assassination, and you just see it skyrocket his calls to mob figures prior to. And also you ha you do have the testimony from Julianne Mercer on Saturday, the 23rd, November 23rd, where she identified Ruby as being the individual who dropped off a person who was carrying a uh rifle case. And you know, he dropped them off by the grassy knoll. So she identified Ruby the day before he shoots Oswald. Well, Os you got to remember, I think Ruby was also involved with the CIA.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, he was uh gun running into Cuba. Yeah. Absolutely. And and the thing is that I just don't think that the mob, as much as they were in bed with the CIA, were willing to p take a front seat in this operation. I I do believe they were sitting in the back seat. I think there were people that were aware of it.
SPEAKER_01:But I question the fact but I I just wanted to say one thing about the uh and I don't know where we are in a conversation, but the Johnson thing. I mean, you gotta explain to me the smile and the wink to his friend on the airplane. I mean, he must have known something. He must have had some idea that it was gonna fall his way. And he figured that if, in my mind, he figured that, listen, if everything went bad, he'd point their finger at them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. One of the things that Johnson also did was a few days after the assassination, he was on a tape recording with uh Hoover and he asked, How many shots? And Hoover says, three. And he goes, Were any uh aimed at me? So I think that uh he was a little paranoid thinking that it was possible that the JM Wave folks found out that he was going to scuttle what they had planned. Because you know, we do have to remember that certain things happened immediately after the assassination where they really tried to pin this on Cuba. You have the DRE, uh, which was funded by the CIA to the tune of like$5,000 a month back then. Yeah. Uh they're the ones that alerted everybody about Oswald setting up a Fair Play for Cuba committee. Then we also have that fake letter that came out of Cuba directed to Lee Harvey Oswald, and then we have the whole mess about Mexico City.
SPEAKER_02:Which is where they said that's total scam.
SPEAKER_00:That's that's total scam. But they, you know, they uh they said that he visited the Cuban embassy and then he met with the head of uh Soviet assassinations for the Western Hemisphere.
SPEAKER_02:Which is even Hoover said when they listened to the recording, he said that's not a good thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because it's not yeah. And and the f and the photographs that they released. But they were they were still trying to push it because uh the receptionist that the Cuban and you know, Sylvia Duran, they held her for like 48 hours trying to beat her not physically, but but but you know, have her say, oh yeah, uh it was Lee Harvey Oswald. Yeah. I mean, somebody was impersonating him, which that's part of the setup.
SPEAKER_02:There had to be, and and and this is not something that was just planned right away. This took this took a while. They were they were pissed off after the Bay of Pigs. And the Cuban Missile Crisis, which did not go the way they wanted it at all. They wanted to get rid of it. It was the coup d'etat. We we we more or less all kind of agree on that. I mean, I still think that these generals they wanted to drop bombs, atomic bombs, on China and Russia. Yeah. They were just bombing crazy. I mean, Curtis LeMay, I mean, he was a raving maniac. Yeah, he had not the slightest bit of respect for Kennedy, which is obvious in the recordings when during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
SPEAKER_00:And he, you know, he he's the guy that left Canada and went to view the autopsy like as a personal victory type of a thing.
SPEAKER_02:He smoked a cigar while it was going on.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes. Yeah, but it was definitely interesting. And and you know, you you think about the times that LeMay, you know, came to the president and said, Kennedy, President Kennedy, that, you know, we could go out there and wipe him out. We could launch uh a first strike and we have the superiority while we have him, and let's wipe him out now. And Kennedy saying, yeah, the he is uh those brass hats, they have the benefit of if they're wrong, nobody's gonna be around to tell him. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, they they the the Joint Chiefs presented Kennedy with a plan to uh initiate nuclear war against the Soviets in the fall of 1963. And to get to your point about your potential military involvement, you have Operation North Woods. So North Woods was signed off by the five Joint Chiefs of Staff, and it called for terrorist activity, mostly in the southeast United States, but also blowing up a ship in Guantanamo. And also they were going to fake that an airliner was shot down so as to create enough false flags so that we would have a war with Cuba. So that's why I kind of think that the planners for the assassination took North Woods and the false flag was going to be the Ketty assassination and blame Cuba for it.
SPEAKER_02:Sure. It could very well be. That's that's the sad part is we just don't know. And I don't think we ever will. Well, it's kind of a sad thing that we have parts of the puzzle. We have this jigsaw puzzle that's missing like 18 pieces. And we can't quite figure out what the picture is. But we have we have ideas, we have thoughts, we have basically we're we're saying somewhat the same thing. We're we're saying that this obviously is a conspiracy, it's obviously a coup d'etat, it's obviously a grouping of individuals that want to get rid of Kennedy, but we just don't know who the employers are. Right. That's the scary part.
SPEAKER_00:So, you know, the closest thing that we have was a year before he died, Howard Hunt laid out, you know, to his son, he wrote it down as to you know who was involved. One of the things that we certainly know was that he was involved, and we could even uh use the Watergate tapes to prove that. Because uh when uh when Hunt was arrested for Watergate, he blackmailed the Nixon administration. I forget how much money it was, but on one of the Watergate tapes, Nixon says this hunt, he knows a lot of hanky panky, and it goes all the way back to the Bay of Pigs thing. And if that ever comes out, it's gonna make the country look bad, it's gonna make the CIA look bad. And we know from Haldeman's book, Haldeman was Nixon's chiefs of staff, he said that President Nixon never said Kennedy assassination. He would always call it the Bay of Pigs thing.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So, you know, so we we uh Hunt uh uh in some capacity, probably the paymaster for the actual shooters, but he was he was involved for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you remember the conversation about getting money, and I believe they were talking about Hunt, is that Nixon sort of said, Oh, I can get a million dollars, I can get a million dollars in cash on the tapes. He goes, It could be gotten, we could pay him. And I think he was talking about Hunt at the time in that original time, where where they had no problems with paying him the money. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he was definitely a man who knew too much.
SPEAKER_01:Well, his wife, right?
SPEAKER_00:His wife was killed on the airplane. An interesting plane crash because uh witnesses to it said all of a sudden all these federal agents were like all over the plane, like had it, it's almost as if they knew where it was gonna land, you know.
SPEAKER_01:So, I mean that that's a that's a strange story uh story, you know. There was I don't know if there was some talk or something that she was gonna say something or she knew something.
SPEAKER_00:I think I think that she was supposed to be carrying documents.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It was also a good way to shut him up.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:Clear sign saying you're next. Then bang. You know, and and with all the killing going on, how many people died, how many people were lost, how many people just vanish? Um I I don't think that would be a big problem for anybody just uh to take care of it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think uh I think thirty material witnesses died by nineteen sixty-seven, and the Times of London said that the would uh the odds of that would be something like a hundred trillion to one. Yes. So the one thing that the one thing that might be coming out is footage taken from the motorcade that day, which supposedly shows Oswald in the uh doorway of the uh Texas School Book Depository. Researchers have this figure there that they call prayer man. Oliver Stone looked at the footage and he said it certainly looks like Oswald. So today with digital uh enhancements, if they get that original footage, which uh people have asked the Luna Committee to subpoena the footage because it still exists. So that would be a fur a big first start, because if he's over there, he's not up on the sixth floor. Right. And that would make sense.
SPEAKER_02:That certainly puts a big hole in things, yes.
SPEAKER_01:Big time. And that would make sense because other witnesses that were suppressed said that they saw him in other places at different times. He's drinking.
SPEAKER_02:He's drinking a book, you know. Come on.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because I'm gonna kill the president, but I think I'll have a coke first.
SPEAKER_00:That's the one thing that they've never ever came up with was a motive. In all these years, you know, they they've never been able to come forward with a motive like uh, you know, all of a sudden the this guy who, you know, supposedly he spoke well of President Kennedy. I watched a uh a YouTube video of Robert Groden, one of the foremost researchers, and he was the rooming house where Oswald State is now like a museum, and they were talking to the I guess it was the granddaughter at the time of the owner. And she said, you know, Oswald was grazed. She used to he used to play with them, you know, he was always you know throwing a football with the kids and stuff. So, you know, why is it all of a sudden this guy who has, you know, uh, what was it, a two-year-old kid and a baby just you know, says, Oh, I'm gonna shoot the president today. You know, they've never been able to come up with a motive.
SPEAKER_02:It's very illogical. Preordained, obviously. It's all set. I mean, even when Johnson calls calls uh Hoover and says, Do we know who did it? And he said, Yes. And he goes to the whole thing. We know exactly what happened. How would he know exactly what happened?
SPEAKER_01:In that time frame, there were new after a day, there were news articles out there that explained everything he did. Yeah. And and and talked about his relationship to Cuba or whatever.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's it's an obvious it's an obviously covered group. The sad part about it is I actually think that Lee Harvey Oswald is probably an American hero because there were three areas where they were going to kill JFK. The first one was in September in Florida. That got scuttled because of uh, you know, they infiltrated that group. And uh, you know, you you can listen to the tape. Guy says, you know, you shoot them with a high-powered rifle from an office building, so they stopped the motorcade. The second one was on uh, I think it was gonna be November 2nd in Chicago. And we know from reporting that's been done on it that an FBI informant named Lee, based on his information, uh they were told that there was going to be uh an assassination attempt. And then a woman, cleaning lady, goes into this room and she finds guns and she finds a map of like the parade route and she calls the police. Police call the Secret Service. Two of the people were arrested, but you know, of course, there's no reports left on that. And then we have the FBI teletype that went out, I think, on the 19th of November, saying that there was going to be an assassination attempt against JFK November 21st, 22nd. If I had a bet, I would say that Oswald was the source of that FBI television. I wouldn't be surprised.
SPEAKER_02:I wouldn't be surprised at all. Oswald is a pathetic character in this whole story. Yeah. Because he's never been allowed to tell his story. Right. And uh it's already been pre-written before his death. Yeah. And uh it's it's very unfortunate. And the same in a sense with JFK. JFK has become, instead of a president, a thing in this whole story. The body. The body is treated so disrespectfully. When you think about what it was done, I I had the opportunity to talk with Dr. McClellan and I asked him a question. He he was a friend with Jerome Hines. Jerome Hines was a friend of JFK's, and and so he did me that favor, and so I could talk to a McClellan, and he said the whole back of his head on the right side. It was it was fist-sized, he said. It was all blown out. He said it was obvious. I mean, he said there wasn't much brain matter, except the brain matter was falling out of his head. You know, how does this happen if the head wounds on the top of the head?
SPEAKER_00:That's that's one thing that's happened is that the the doctors who saw the wounds all said that uh you know there was a big deficit in the occipital area of the skull. Yes. Uh you know, it's it's disappeared, but there was a piece called the Harper Fragment that w that was found on the grass. And so, yeah, it you know, the poor motorcycle policeman, he got hit with with all that stuff. You know, he thought he was shot.
SPEAKER_02:Everything was flying in the wrong direction if he's getting hit from the back. Right.
SPEAKER_00:That is correct. That is correct without question.
SPEAKER_02:The thing that that I found so fascinating was the fact that McClellan says something, and he said it was never said directly. But every doctor was more or less inferred with the fact that they didn't see what they saw. Right. And they should basically just be quiet. And they were basically they didn't talk for a long, long time. So they got old and retired, and it didn't matter anymore.
SPEAKER_01:Well, if you think about it, these guys come and threaten you. You know, sometimes you say to yourself, Well, you know, maybe they're not serious, maybe they're just threatening, maybe they're not carrying it out. They just killed the president of the United States. If they can get to him, they can get to anybody.
SPEAKER_02:Of course. And all these people had to sign these documents. My father, by the way, my father was in Vietnam in 1954. We weren't in Vietnam in 1954. Right. And so when he was there, after he was done, he had to sign paperwork saying that what he did he didn't do. Right. Which is common in our government. We have lots of agreements and talks like this, and so many people were threatened and challenged and told, no, you didn't see that. That's not real. That never happened. Forget it.
SPEAKER_01:You know, how about all that? You know, that went on that went on uh constantly, so who knows?
SPEAKER_02:And it was only long time because France, France finally got out of there. And then we we we hopped in. And JFK had been over in Vietnam in the 1950s. And he saw what an absolute mess it was with the French. And of course, we did what he said we shouldn't do. And then we discovered how we basically won the American Revolution, is basically the North Vietnamese knew they didn't. Didn't have to win the war, they just had to get us tired.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And that's what we did. Yeah, it was a war of attrition. Yeah. And and and JFK knew that. He was smart enough to realize that. Johnson was smart enough, but he was terrified. He wasn't going to take the same route that JFK was doing. He realized that didn't work very well. And so he was very agreeable.
SPEAKER_01:And then there's, you know, the evil man behind the scene, Dulles. I could wonder what role he must have had in all this.
SPEAKER_02:Can I put it this way? I wonder what role he didn't play.
SPEAKER_01:He could have planned it, or at least got the guys to plan it. He could have made sure it was kept quiet. And then he made sure that the story was correct. The best is the interview when you say, Have you ever killed anybody? And he's smoking a cigar his his pipe and he's sitting there. It's like total, absolute arrogance. Like, yeah, my job is to kill people. I do whatever I want.
SPEAKER_02:Frightening, dangerous man. And he ran the Warren Commission. And no one dared question what he said. I mean, they changed the location of the bullets. I mean, I mean, Gerald Ford did. I sat and talked to Gerald Ford about it and he lied to me.
SPEAKER_01:I like the what was it, a card or a letter he gave you? I wholly, wholly believe you sent me a copy of it. I think I put it up.
SPEAKER_02:Well, he had a thing. He showed me, he pulled it out of his desk, and he said he said, there are questions with the Warren Commission. We talked about the the movie JFK. And he said, it's a great movie. He said, he said, but but it's based on innuendo. And a court of law cannot be judged by innuendo. Which he was correct on that. I understand that. But the thing was that he said he felt there were issues with the Warren Commission where there were mistakes. But he said I basically concur with it with his findings. Which he knew as well as everybody else it was absolutely hogwash.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. I think Nixon had something to say. Didn't he say there was a greatest lie? Perpetrators, something like that.
SPEAKER_02:Probably.
SPEAKER_00:Probably.
SPEAKER_02:I always like I always like with what was his name? Stone was it Stone? Roger Stone. Roger Stone said the thing about he he he cornered Nixon after several martinis and said, Who killed Kennedy? And he said he looked into his martini for a while. And then he said, both Lyndon and I wanted to be president.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:He wasn't willing to do what Lyndon was willing to do to make that happen.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. There's something I wanted to mention, just I wanted to mention people that were witnesses, people I talked to, and just to get their take on it. Daniel Patrick Moynihan and his wife Liz Moynihan were very much involved in the Kennedy administration. And I sat down, oh, what was it many years ago, in the back seat of a car driving to Gettysburg Battlefield with Liz Moynihan and we just sat down and talked. And she said, when that event happened, she said, her husband, the first thing he said was, make sure we give Oswald Secret Service protection. Because the last thing you want to have is anything happened to him.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_02:And of course, she said the press came to see him and they announced that Oswald had been killed. And he just sat there and slammed his fist on his desk saying, I told you what to do. Nobody would do a damn thing. And it's really kind of fascinating. And Ms. says she was there at the White House when when they brought the casket in. It was a very, very moving thing. And then the family opened the casket and they had a private viewing and they didn't like the way he looked. Jackie said he doesn't look like himself. Well, of course, with all of the wounds and everything else, and pouring plaster of Paris into his head and everything else, the body is not gonna look like it was. And I've often wondered whether the body is even buried.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, what what's interesting about all this is if he wanted to, Trump could put an end to all that by ordering him to be exhumed and have a forensic study done. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it would be the family. The family has a very, very strong tie to this whole thing. The family has a tie to the autopsy photographs. He has a tie to documents. I don't know why it was done that way, but it was done that way.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00:But I you know Trump might be able to override it saying it's a national security issue. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02:I don't think we'll ever get the body exempt. Right.
SPEAKER_00:I agree. I agree too.
SPEAKER_01:I don't think it's ever going to happen.
SPEAKER_00:You know, because one of the things that might have happened to his face was I was reading an account of, again, the uh coroner and rather the undertaker, and it seemed that JFK had some holes in his face because when they put the fluid in, it came out. So some people speculate that you know there was a shot from the uh through the windshield, and possibly the glass cut him. And that's what caused those wounds to appear. So that might have thrown off his face as well when they put up the casket.
SPEAKER_02:That we're missing these pieces. And I mean, obviously somebody knew what happened. Somebody knew everything. Yeah. But someone within the CIA, they think very differently than we do. They have a they have a very different sense of understanding, I think.
SPEAKER_01:Uh they're basically they can keep secrets. I think it's possible many people knew what really happened. Could very well be. You know, it it took, you know, you don't know So say there's other shooters. You don't know what they were told. They were told to go in and kill the president, and they did what they were told. Yeah. You know, they didn't know all the other parts. They didn't know about Oswald, they didn't know, you know, it's very possible they didn't know about any of those things.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. As I said before, I don't really care to know about all the shooters, but I want to find out who the employers are. Yeah. That's the interesting thing, because whoever was in charge, that's the story. Right. Yeah. And that's unfortunately the part that probably we'll never know.
SPEAKER_01:Agreed. See, but Dom has this belief, and and I think it's come true somewhat already, is that there's so many CIA documents put in boxes and on storage that they don't even know where they are anymore. And they constantly are finding new records. But I think I think it's really possible that they're gonna come across something.
SPEAKER_02:They might come across something. But I have a feeling that in 1963, in 1964, everything was carefully expunged that would lead a trail. I don't think the CIA would be silly enough or callous enough to sit down and say, oh, well, let's leave this here. This says exactly how we did it. I I just cannot imagine that an organization like the CIA that is built on secrets would have basically a Rosetta Stone that would tell us exactly what happened.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I doubt that they would have done an internal investigation and come up with an answer that they put down on paper. But what can exist hidden somewhere somewhere, it could be in a safety deposit box. You have several films that were seized that day. Yes. People, you know, some of these people that they they keep, you know, these things as souvenirs. I mean, that's how they were able to get the Megar Evers case reopened, right? The district attorney kept the rifle as a souvenir. Yeah. So, you know, you had several films that were seized that day, which absolutely could exist. Could very well, yes. The uh one of the things that I found interesting in the film JFK, and nobody ever questioned Oliver Stone. If you ever get the opportunity to, please ask him this question. Prior to the assassination sequence, he shows what I'll term a professional camera. It's like a long camera that gets turned on in a window somewhere. And I'm I wonder if, because he had a lot of people who were uh associated, you know, people claim with the with the actual Dealy Plaza operation as advisors. I wonder if somebody told him that it it actually was filmed in a professional manner by uh you know a top camera. You know, people like Curtis LeMay probably would want to see that happen. That you know, it's a possibility. It's macabre, but but people keep weird souvenirs. Well, you never know.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I I agree with that. That that that also, if you have something like that, it also might have been done for blackmail purposes. For example, if one three-letter organization knew that this was going to happen, they film it because they want blackmail on the other three-letter organization that did it. Yeah. So I could see things like that still being in existence.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I agree with that. Once again, I I I have a feeling we won't ever know. Because I think they would be willing to destroy it before they would release it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it it it won't come through official channels. What'll happen is somebody will find it and they'll go like, whoa, and then they'll make a copy of it and put it out on the internet. Strategic things have happened.
SPEAKER_01:Or they'll sell it to somebody who put it on the internet because it'll be incredibly valuable, you know?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even that that bone that was found is vanished. You know. It was photographed at least. What what the bone that was found the day after. Oh, bone.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Harper fragment. Yeah, the Harper fragment. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It was photographed at least, but it's vanished.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I could see that sitting on Alan Dulles' desk.
SPEAKER_02:I hate to I hate to say this, but I think I agree with you. I can imagine that a son of a gun would like that.
SPEAKER_01:Like put it in with a little thing on uh yeah, my greatest victory or something like that.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you know, it's an interesting thing. I always remember that during the Warren Commission, they were looking at the clothes that Kennedy was wearing. And Dulles was looking at the tie. And instead of talking about wounds or whatever, he said, I never knew Kennedy bought wore store-bought ties. That was his comment. Which is rather fascinating when you think about it. Just callous. Cold, callous, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very unfortunate thing. I mean, the this whole story, which is sort of like become the never-ending story. Um 1963. I mean, the middle of the 20th century. Here we are in the first quarter of the 21st century. We're still talking about it. We're still questioning it because we don't know. We still have thoughts, we have ideas. Everybody's dead now, practically. That was near Ruth Payne just passed away. Yes. Yeah. Taking all of her secrets with her.
SPEAKER_00:I I do believe, though, from a historical point of view, that Garrison, Jim Garrison pierced the New Orleans portion of the assassination. I agree. I agree. Unfortunately, lots of those records were uh destroyed, but we have his books on it. So I think that they tell an interesting tale for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Guy Bannister, the guy that was the pilot. What was his name? David Ferry. David Ferry. I mean, he is. When you talk about interesting characters, David Ferry is an interesting character. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And one of the things that showed up was a photo of a 15-year-old Lee Harvey Oswald in David Ferry's Civil Air Patrol. And yeah, there's a photo of them together. Right. One of the things that was supposedly stolen from the House Assassinations Committee was a film of uh mercenaries training in Lake Poncha train, and David Ferry was there and Lee Oswald was there together. So in the summer of 63. And Stolen? Yeah. Yep.
SPEAKER_02:From a safe. Yep. Wow. And that I wasn't aware of. All I know is members of the CIA came to that and said, basically, screw you. I'm not telling you anything.
SPEAKER_00:Well, from my reading on it, the it kicked off when Robert Groden was on Geraldo Rivera's show, Goodnight America. Right. Releasing that. Dick Gregory. And they showed the Zapruder film. And there was an outcry in the country, so they started the House Assassinations Committee. And from what I read, there was the two guys that were heading at the time, Richard Sprague and Robert Tannenbaum, who I believe is still alive, Tannenbaum, they were actually going to try to solve the whole thing. They were dedicated to that. Of course, they were quickly removed, and then you had Robert Blakely put in. But during the few weeks or months when they headed it, supposedly the CIA was giving consideration to doing what they call a limited hangout. And they were going to say that Hunt and a few other agents were involved, and that's what happened. But when Sprague and Tannenbaum were removed and Blakely installed, they didn't have to do that anymore. They just they basically said screw you. And and you you had that guy, George Gianides. Right. One of the things that the House did was they told the CIA, you know, we're going to deal with you, but we can't have anybody who is an agent in 1963. It has to be somebody after that. So who do they put forth that put this guy George Gianides for, you know, and he was the guy who was running the DRE for the CIA in 1963. So, you know, everything came from him. And now Blakey is actually embarrassed about that. And he said, if I knew that, you know, I would have had a different uh outlook on things.
SPEAKER_02:Sure. Well, he was basically controllable. That was the whole thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And uh interestingly, uh the judge and I looked at a um documentary on the RFK assassination, and George Gianides was one of the people identified by a CIA operative as being in the Ambassador Hotel the night of Robert Kennedy's assassination.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So it's all interconnected, really. Yeah, that documentary is the strangest. You know, the old saying, you know, you know, you kill the tail, the dog will still walk. They killed the dog, and then they waited a little while and then they killed the tail.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, they couldn't let him become president. No, no. Yeah. And what's interesting is Jim, you know, he sent some of his people to uh to damage uh Garrison's reputation, you know, Bobby Kennedy. And Bobby Kennedy told those guys and said, listen, tell him they're gonna kill him. You know, his only chance at living is to get on board. And turned out that Garrison was absolutely right.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I do have a feeling about Robert Kennedy. You know, I was able to sit and chat with uh Ted Kennedy for a while. And he talked about things, but he didn't really care to talk about the assassination at all. Yeah. Because basically I think, and this is only my thought, is that the military were looking at Kennedy as a traitor. They were looking at him as someone working with the Soviets and sharing documents. In fact, it was actually a document that they marked that wound up in Russia that he was sharing with Khrushchev. And the Kennedy family was basically said, just shut up. Just let sleeping dogs lie. They didn't dare say anything. They couldn't. And I think Ted Kennedy had a career that was somewhat interrupted with Chocac. I don't know if he did it. Somehow I have a feeling he didn't. I think he was set up. But that that basically killed his prospects as well. I mean the Kennedy the Kennedy Klan at this point was basically rendered null and void. Right.
SPEAKER_00:Um and that was also the great fear that people had that you would have 24 years of Kennedy. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. And that was a big issue. And uh, you know, the judge and I also looked at this documentary, I think it was called the The Women of JFK. And uh, you know, if true, it's kind of wild because there were three pe three women identified from 1960 to 1963 that actually might have been spies that you know he had affairs with. And we know that he had the affair with Judith Exner, who was the girlfriend of uh busy with Giacana. Yeah. So, you know, when you the one thing and and and I I I want your opinion on this. Okay. People talk about because you know, it was the beginning of the movie JFK, uh the I think it was June sixty. At American University, where Kennedy is talking about having detente with Russia. Right. But I believe it was September 9th, 1963, he gives a speech to the UN where he talks about a joint mission to the moon with Russia. Now, if I'm in the military-industrial complex, that's going to send shivers down my spine because let's say, you know, like a year before we almost blew each other up. Now this guy wants us to give up all of our secrets, metallurgy, our electronics, our radar, everything. Why would he do that? I mean, because if you're looking at the election in 64, he's going to get hammered with that, you know, by by Goldwater. Why would he do something like that?
SPEAKER_02:Here's my guess on this whole thing with JFK. In his private notes, he thought he was going to live to be 45 years of age. Because his health, his conditions were terrible. Right. He didn't expect to live very long. Right. Right. I often thought that he looked at himself a little Don Quixote, kind of like, going against that windmill. He was gonna go, if and if he was gonna go, he was going to go out with blazers. I really kind of think that he basically said, Go ahead, try it.
SPEAKER_00:It's interesting you say that because he kind of foretold his own execution when talking about the uh book Seven Days in May, which he loved the book. Right. And so much that he actually gave permission to shoot the film in the White House.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Frankenheimer Frankenheimer, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And it's a great movie. So for you know, all the viewers, they should watch it. Seven Days in May. But a friend of JFK's asked him, Do you think that that really could happen? And he thought about it and he said, if three things happen, I think that that's a possibility. So when you look at the Bay of Pigs, the Cuban Missile Crisis, then pulling out of Vietnam with uh National Security Action Memorandum 263, it's like he predicted the scenario that would cause the linchpins to kick in.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you you you open up something that I want to ask you. Kennedy's a smart guy. Right. Very smart. I remember talking to people who would talk to him, and they said he had an incredible intellect. He had to know. He was in the crosshairs. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:He had to know. Well, I mean, that that day there was a full-page ad in the Dallas Morning News wanted for treason. Sure, yes. Right? And he had a conversation that morning with uh Congressman Henry Gonzalez, and he said, uh, you know, I I know about the threats, but the Secret Service telling me they have it all taken care of. I think that JFK had one big problem in that he completely lacked any paranoia. A normal person, you know, I mean, he had to find out somehow about the uh the attempt in uh Florida, you know, because his motor gate cock. He had he had to be told about Chicago, right? Yeah. So, you know, you're sitting in an open limousine in Dallas. I mean, where he himself said we're going to Nutville or something worse to that effect. Exactly. Going to Nut Country, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right, nut country, right. So I just think that I mean he was so brazen in his affairs. I think you you're dealing with a guy was even though he was a top-notch politician, he had zero paranoia. Yeah. And I think if he would have had 1% paranoia, he would have taken a little bit more interest in his own personal safety.
SPEAKER_02:He didn't care. I really don't think, you know, here's a guy that's wracked in pain every day. Yeah. He has achieved the greatest thing he's ever gonna do in his life.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_02:And he's riding high. And he knows he's gonna die soon. I mean, you know, I mean his health is so bad. He knows everything is in his body. I mean, when that's one of the reasons also to get into that perhaps one of the reasons why they moved the body, they did not want anyone to get in there and find out all the various problems he had and all the drugs he was on, and all the sexual diseases he was carrying.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but I I think it's fair to say that when you talk about his paranoia, it was pretty much overwhelmed by his own ego. I mean, he had a gigantic ego. I mean, listen, my dad was a very good thing. He wasn't president. Right. A cult of personality, right? But my dad was in the war and he, you know, he had tattoos all over his whole body. He was in he was in uh World War II and in Korea. And though he didn't speak about it, my mother told me that the reason his behavior was so over the top with all these tattoos and you know, and drunken sailor stuff, you know, guys going out partying all night, is because he never thought he was coming back.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So it if you have this, you know, this this sense that you're gonna die, if you're gonna die at 45, as say, then you're gonna do whatever you want. What's the difference? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I agree. Yeah, but he was in his life, he was given the last rice, I think, three times for for various different ailments. I think and uh, you know, so get back to answering your question. Maybe he thought it would be an easier way to go out. Sure. You know, than suffer. So, you know, maybe, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:And he had the greatest desire. One of the things that everybody said, um, sorry to throw names in here too often, but uh Arthur Schlesinger, who was his historian, I used to talk to him on the phone, and he would tell me stories. Funny stories, actually. Just uh just a quick little story. He was uh Kennedy's historian and always focused on history. He Kennedy would walk into his office, which was in the East Wing, and he would say, Arthur, what happened today in history? And he'd want to know so he could use it perhaps on a speech or whatever. And so he walked in one day and said, Arthur, this week, let's do movie reviews. Just something totally off the wall. That's just the way he was.
SPEAKER_00:So that is uh potential for another thing which might appear, which is the chapter in Death of a President that was not published. So the Kennedy family hired Arthur Schlesinger to write the book, and Jackie was interviewed for it, and they actually took Schlesinger to court to take out part of it. And supposedly what that involves is Jackie's belief that Lyndon Johnson was involved with the assassination. Yeah. And they didn't want it out there. So that chapter did exist, and you know, who knows, maybe that might see the light of day at some point in time.
SPEAKER_02:But the thing I wanted to say is the fact that Kennedy was very smart and he said he was a great intellect. And so how could he not know? How could he not know that something was going to happen? What I was thinking about with Schessinger is the fact that uh he he idolized Kennedy. He said he could never understand why people thought he had affairs. He just couldn't he couldn't even see that. He had this idyllic understanding of JFK.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, you know, that's the thing. A lot of uh JFK people, it it's Camelot to them, you know, and that's it. Like what what I think, had Kennedy never been assassinated, I think that his affairs were going to come out in 1964. Like everybody says he was a shoe-in. I don't think so, because you know, part of what we saw when we watched that uh show on uh The Women of JFK is in England they were writing stories about high-ranking members of the New Frontier that were involved in sexual scandal, much like the perfumo scandal in in England. Right, yeah. So so I think that he was actually headed for a fall in 64. Right. I think that he would have been a lot of trouble.
SPEAKER_02:I don't think he would have missed out. I think he would have won, even with his actions. I think it might have hurt him some. Robert Kennedy, his job throughout his life was to clean up after his brother. Absolutely. He would threaten, he would do whatever had to be done to stop a story. Yeah, and it he did it countless times. That's why I've always thought that the last thing that Robert did to clean up after his f brother was to get rid of anything that would bring any kind of information to the body. That's why I I've always wondered, because he pushed to have that casket taken out. Because it would be one of morbid fascination, as he said.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And it was taken out hold, and no one looked to see what was in it. Right.
SPEAKER_01:So when they when when they intern him, what's the difference between being buried? What you what do you mean? You said now he's interned.
SPEAKER_02:He he's entombed. Entombed, I'm sorry. He's he's in a in a he's he's above ground now. He's not buried in the earth. Oh, I didn't know that. I thought I thought he was they built up this whole the whole thing that's built up a ways and it's got compartments in it for things to be for the caskets to be put into. Uh it's no longer buried in the ground, as it were. He was originally buried in a Wilbur vault, by the way, just so you know, which was which was never opened when it was transferred in 1967, but it was placed. There's a photograph of it placed in the the vault in which it sits now. And uh it's it's above ground.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. Another scandal that JFK would have had to deal with in in 64 would have been the elimination of Lyndon Johnson because they were work you know, they were working on that. And uh literally, as the bullets were flying in Dealey Plaza, there was a guy giving testimony in Washington about payoffs to Lyndon Johnson. And he, after the assassination, he famously stopped uh talking about it. So it's one thing to talk about a vice president, and now it's a president, so no. So uh and from what I've read, I think it was Timer Newsweek was gonna have a huge issue the coming week about Lyndon Johnson and all of his scandals. And we also have it from Evelyn Lincoln, JFK's secretary, that Lyndon Johnson was not going to be on the ticket in 64. So, you know, there would have been a lot to hit JFK with politically. You know, his bad choice with uh with Lyndon Johnson and the uh you know, it in 64, you know, uh to cheat on on Jackie, I mean, you know, she's like loved by the world. There would have been a bad reaction to that. And I also think Goldwater would have hit JFK over the head with his trying to you know have a reproachment with uh the USSR.
SPEAKER_02:You have a good point there, and I I I can't disagree. But I will I will stand my ground and say I still think I still think he might have been damaged, but he had the personality, he had the charm. I mean, he could woo over, he was so good. He was so good. He was the television president. Barry Goldwater came across as like like a cold fish.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. The one thing which would have been very difficult had, let's say, somebody like Jay Garhoover wanted him out, would have been all the documentation on Judith Exner. Because that of all the affairs, that's like the super documented one because you have calls to the White House, calls from the White House to her, you have her, which uh Kennedy talked about, he was really pissed off because they would tape record, the FBI was tape recording her, you know, besides calls with Kennedy, just her. Right. And so that was actually a fully documented thing. It would have been really tough for him to get out from underneath that. I I don't disagree. But I mean, I'll I'll say this. If there was anybody who was going to get out of it, it would have been JFK, even more so than Bill Clinton.
SPEAKER_02:You know, he he knew how to work a crowd. He really was good at it. And he had women, whether he was having affairs or not, he made them swoon. Right. Oh, yeah, without a doubt. My mother, I will tell you, my mother, my mother used to say he could leap his slippers by my bed any day.
SPEAKER_01:That's what she used to say. Let's not forget, too, that you know, Jagger Hoover had so much on him that when he ran for president, he maybe favored Kennedy because he had so much on him. And probably didn't have that much on Goldwater like he had on Kennedy. Yeah. Well, Goldwater is just kind of he was just there.
SPEAKER_02:It wasn't a great deal to Goldwater.
SPEAKER_01:And and the vice was LeMay his vice president, Ken uh vice president? In six sixty eight. Oh, in sixty-eight. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:How's that for a terrible Tussum? Curtis LeMay makes my blood run cold, I'm sorry. You know, uh I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:Soldier, soldier.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I guess with an evil twist. In in the end result here, we enter this in a sense as and we exit this, I should say, as we kind of entered it. We know many, many parts of this, but we still can't answer many parts of it. Right. It's uh once again the never-ending story that just goes on. And I want it to be answered. I really do. I would love to see, you know, tomorrow, you know, the papers come out and say, this is what happened. I'd like to live to see this, but I don't think it'll happen. I don't think it'll happen in all of our lifetimes. I really don't. Maybe they'll wait till Carolyn is Carolyn is gone. Maybe that might be the deciding factor when certain things are released.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you gotta figure, in my view, is that something's gotta happen where where they want to distract the public from concentrating on it, that all of a sudden they're gonna tell you about JFK and everyone's gonna be absorbed in that and distract us from about something going on in current affairs.
SPEAKER_02:Another false flag, right? Yeah. Another false flag, right? So all right, team.
SPEAKER_01:What anything else you want to leave it there? We covered a lot of stuff. Yeah. So this is part, what did we do? Three parts, Jack? This is part four of our and this is our roundtable discussion of various things we want to discuss. And I thank Dom and I thank you, Jack. And I look forward to seeing you both on other topics real soon. I know that'd be fun. Um anything else. So thank you all. It's a pleasure to to meet you, Dom. Same hair, same hair. Pleasure's always mine. Thanks, guys. All right, take care. Thank you.
